Are Waterproof membranes waterproof?

[bobbynz]

Just a quick question for you lot to ponder.
Are waterproof membranes really that waterproof?
When is a dpm or a waterproof membrane not waterproof?
Do dpm and other waterproofing absorb water? and if so what could be the consequences of some kind of absorption?
Would like to know your thoughts about this as we have had a recent development regarding these issues.
Have a look at this View attachment 35875 There is quite a bit to go through but a quick browse will get you through the main points :yikes:.


well......what are waiting for,.... go on ...have a look....I dare ya!!

I'll leave you to it, I'm off to bed.
:sleep1:

 

[DHTiling]

This really depends upon the membrane type...

The ones i use are fully water tight..

 

[jay]

Think it comes down to education .
in OZ waterproof membranes have 3 classes http://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&r...qqXTDQ&usg=AFQjCNGorz75Bx74EZHXCmTZHrN-bF7YwA

most tile shops ect will say just paint it on and its classified as waterproof/////////

Tilers need to be educated on this product as for going over cracks or joints without any form of breaker tape or bond breaker (depending on the class of membrane) you are looking for trouble also special attention is needed at taps and drains (puddle flange is a must)
floor membranes should be applied over the top of the screed as all water can drain off the membrane to the drain (no puddling)

Most waterproof membranes do allow moisture to pass but it is minimal http://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&r...r5nXCw&usg=AFQjCNFzCQXyiXzaV7HeMlN5Y7tJFmAv1w scroll down to

Moisture vapour transmission 0.51g/m2/24hours

licencing helps but is not fool proof (bloody cowboys)

 

[bobbynz]

Education ay you dont need to be educated to throw a few tiles down , mate, anyone can lay tiles all ya need is a bit of waterproof glue and grout and she'll be right, mate:lol:
Yeah, def. agree there Jay, unfortunately there ain't much of that stuff being used , education that is.
I make it my business to research as much as I can, thats why I came across this. tbh I was under the impression that liquid WP membranes had little or no absoption. Was surprised to read this when a mate emailed to me a couple of weeks ago.
I had a look at the tds for the Laticrete hydroban, looks good but that report I posted has some really damning evidence and I hope the Industry responds to it well. That report had an entire apartment block failing. Wonder who is going to put their hand up for that one. :yikes:
Just goes to show the Industry really needs to focus on research and education, as the work we have to do these days, has indeed become a highly technical trade that will keep the best of us on our toes.
Its for that reason we need forums like this

Heyyy, i just realised I've passed my 100 mark, do I get a prize like maybe a stamp in my book or maybe even better a gold star or sumfink, well do I, huh, huh :hurray:

 

[DHTiling]

Ah reet, so we are talking tanking pastes and not just sheet membranes..?

C,mon speak bloody english..

 

[jay]

Ah reet, so we are talking tanking pastes and not just sheet membranes..?

C,mon speak bloody english..

Dont have any sheet membranes available here Dave any links by chance

 

[DHTiling]

Goes on like this... walls or floors..

[video=youtube;pigKorqimGk]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pigKorqimGk&feature=channel_video_title[/video]


Schlüter-KERDI - Schlüter-Systems

 

[bobbynz]

Goes on like this... walls or floors..

[video=youtube;pigKorqimGk]

Schlüter-KERDI - Schlüter-Systems

Is that a typical tanking/waterproofing application in UK? We have a few sheet membranes over here, one we like to use is a product called Strataflex and is quite a versitile product check it out here NAC STRATAFLEX Advanced Waterproofing & Anti-Fracture Technology
You only need to us a paint roller to apply a primer, leave to dry then peel the backing off then lay it on to the primed areas. It's a contact adhesion so its pressure sensitive and you have to roll it to ensure full contact but you wont get it up in a hurry.
Is that something you guys use Jay?
Liquid waterproofing membranes are mainly used by the Tilers over here. It's certain liquid membranes that are failing because they absorb to much moisture and some are even re-emulsifying.
English?? We dont speak english down here mate!!:lol:

 

[Richard Edwards]

We do a significant amount of wet rooms here in South Wales - Thats UK not Oz !
I have been offered 'paint on' wet room tanking liquids many times and have always rejected them in favor of our preferred tried and tested methods, that have never failed on me.

We use a combination of sheet membrane as per the post Dave has submitted, he uses Kerdi by Schulter and we use another one, Imperband by Porcelanosa - which is probably made Schulter or someone else anyway. Both materials are very flexible, made from PVc with a cotton flock surface for keying onto.
In additional we use cementous boards and joint with either tanking tape or strips of Imperband. The jointing compound we use is basically a cementous compound with high polymer additive.

I sounds to me that we should consider setting up a business to supply you with Cementous Boards and Sheet membrane products for proper tanking.

Unless you can drink it, never use a liquid !!:8:


Happy Tanking and Tanks a lot

Richard

 

[bobbynz]

We do have cementious boards have done for years but i prefer to use the custom product easyboard. for years though, we didnt even waterproof these boards and just depended on the board which we now know that it alone without tanking is no good. So in came liquid membranes. Exterior however was a different story and bitumen sheet membranes were used and still are occasionaly but we had a compatibility problem with the adhesives used at the time. We had a brand new auckland regional council building go up about 5 stories in all, the entire building exterior was clad with 300mm tiles looked great quite an unusual but very prominent building . About a year later a few tiles fell off and over a short time they were coming off by the dozen daily:yikes: Solution= strip the building of tiles and fit colour steel sheeting. Still looks good though but the architect and council itself had to put there hand up on that disaster.

What was the problem, the architect had the building coated with a paint on bitumen against the objections from the tilers and builder. (they already knew of a compatibilty problem although at the time it was early days and were'nt sure exactly what the problem was) So as usual nobody listened. The next summer heated up the tiles so much that the oils in the bitumen were released and formed a barrier that delaminated the adhesive from the membrane hence the failure.
This proved to be the reason behind the compatibility problem. Up until those days we always screeded over the bitumen membrane and of course had no problems. I've since seen many of these failures simply because there was little or no research done by the adhesive manufacturers. I believe this is the problem today. In a hurry to match or better one another these companies produce a failure prone product. A bit like what happened to you guys with the dural and gmat products.
Imo building products are being produced and used without being tested adequately. :mad2:

 

[Richard Edwards]

We do have cementious boards have done for years but i prefer to use the custom product easyboard. for years though, we didnt even waterproof these boards and just depended on the board which we now know that it alone without tanking is no good. So in came liquid membranes. Exterior however was a different story and bitumen sheet membranes were used and still are occasionaly but we had a compatibility problem with the adhesives used at the time. We had a brand new auckland regional council building go up about 5 stories in all, the entire building exterior was clad with 300mm tiles looked great quite an unusual but very prominent building . About a year later a few tiles fell off and over a short time they were coming off by the dozen daily:yikes: Solution= strip the building of tiles and fit colour steel sheeting. Still looks good though but the architect and council itself had to put there hand up on that disaster.

What was the problem, the architect had the building coated with a paint on bitumen against the objections from the tilers and builder. (they already knew of a compatibilty problem although at the time it was early days and were'nt sure exactly what the problem was) So as usual nobody listened. The next summer heated up the tiles so much that the oils in the bitumen were released and formed a barrier that delaminated the adhesive from the membrane hence the failure.
This proved to be the reason behind the compatibility problem. Up until those days we always screeded over the bitumen membrane and of course had no problems. I've since seen many of these failures simply because there was little or no research done by the adhesive manufacturers. I believe this is the problem today. In a hurry to match or better one another these companies produce a failure prone product. A bit like what happened to you guys with the dural and gmat products.
Imo building products are being produced and used without being tested adequately. :mad2:

----------------------------
Thanks for your reply Bobby

What issues were there with Dural and Gmat -- I know the Gmat was / is a Genesis product and the Dural we use now, but the new version is
Dural C which might be different.. Recently used Dural C on 3 Wet Room floor as uncoupler and it performed really well.

If Dave is looking at this post - he might be able to help as he knows about this product.

Thanks
Richard

 

[Mike Mike]

This is actually an interesting question and I have seen zero information from Dural, Homelux, or Schluter about exactly how moisture and water proof their products are.

All approved systems in Sweden have to comply with ETAG022 and beat a target > 1 milj s/m.

But the thing that I am curious about the U.K. sold products is that they are stuck to the substrate with tile adhesive. The only approved systems here are stuck to the substrate with liquid membrane. So the substrate is primed, a liquid membrane applied, then the duck roll, with a 5cm overlapp between joints, which is sealed with a special Silicon, and painted over with the liquid membrane again.

If the U.K. products like Dural do meet or exceed the ETAG022 requirements then that would be a system I would prefer to use here. I wonder why there are no approved systems like that here though? Is that the manufacturers are not interested in the Scandinavian markets, or is it that they are not waterproof??

I honestly don't know, do you?