Bathroom Wall & Floor - BAL product advice please!!

[zx10r]

Hi guys

Firstly, been reading your forum for a few days now and it's fantastic. I'm an experienced DIY'er and currently renovating my bathroom.

I thought I had all my primer, adhesives and grout sorted, just about to get them and then found out (rightly or wrongly) that the BAL superflex wall grout doesn't come in Grey!

Here is my scenario:-

Bathroom I want to tile in 600mm x 300mm porcelain Q-Rock tiles from Topps, floor AND wall in portrait and landscape with a staggered brick pattern.

Raised flooring is very solid P5 chipboard (no ply tho!), so I am intending to use BAL Bond SBR as primer, then BAL Fastflex (grey) and BAL wide joint (grey) grout (I think 4mm joints will look about right here) with GT1 admix 1:1 ratio.

Now the walls - just been trying to get off the (30yr+) emulsion and it's a bugger to come off (any tips?), to get back to the bare plaster. I was then intending to use BAL Bond SBR to prime, BAL White star to fix and then BAL superflex grout---BUT they don't have it in grey!!!

So can anyone advise on an alternative grout for the walls as I understand the WJG is a bugger to put on the wall (chefs piping bag anyone?)
I was looking at BAL product selector and it looks like Microcolour might do the job.

Oh, I was intending to keep the 4mm joint on the wall too. Full height tiling the walls around the bath and half height around the rest of the room.

Also, trims and stair nosings...seen some lovely Schluter stainless profiles, anyone know a local (Dorset) stockist?

All the best.....

 

[DHTiling]

White star is no good for the walls....Go for a flexible stadard seting bagged adhesive if you need an adhesive thats last longer in the bucket...and if you are doing a 4mm joint on the walls then use the wide joint grout on there as well....

 

[doug boardley]

why are you set on Bal, have you thought about Mapei? equally good imo and not as pricey

 

[zx10r]

White star is no good for the walls....Go for a flexible stadard seting bagged adhesive if you need an adhesive thats last longer in the bucket...and if you are doing a 4mm joint on the walls then use the wide joint grout on there as well....

Thanks Dave....

White star - Ah, ok so a crisis avoided there. Would you recommend any particular type of standard set?

WJG - I heard it was a pain in the A!$e to put that on the walls? Although it would save me buying yet another product!

 

[zx10r]

why are you set on Bal, have you thought about Mapei? equally good imo and not as pricey

Hi Doug

Well not really knowing the details of products on the market it has already taken me two long evenings to work out what I have so far. Also I don't have any product selector/website or supplier for the Mapei products, could you point me in the right direction? Doh!

Also, I'm guessing they are potentially not cross company compatible either, meaning I should always stick with one manufacturer?

Wish I'd posted a question 2 days ago, but I like a challenge!

 

[doug boardley]

when you say that you're trying to remove emulsion, what's under the emulsion, I'm gonna assume it's gypsum skim, and if so, your porcelain will be to heavy for this substrate

 

[grumpygrouter]

You can also check out Mapei Ultracolor Plus in grey grout for the walls. As doug says, check your substrate before diving straight in and putting something up that is too heavy!!

 

[theyomper]

When using Q rock I would advise that you use Tile Protector prior to grouting. It will prevent grout staining the tiles and make the wash down easier. Q rock has quite a rough texture and I have found this product to be a good help.
BAL Adhesives - Products - protective sealer

 

[zx10r]

when you say that you're trying to remove emulsion, what's under the emulsion, I'm gonna assume it's gypsum skim, and if so, your porcelain will be to heavy for this substrate

the wall was already half tiled before onto cement!
The under the emulsion(above that) is a good thickness of plaster, not sure the composition but grey in colour not lke the new brown plaster.
I'm worried now!

 

[White Room]

Some gypsum plasters came in grey few years ago

 

[zx10r]

Some gypsum plasters came in grey few years ago

Hi Whitebeam

well the place was built about 50 years ago.

So I was wondering, what the hell do you normally tile onto then?
If you can't tile on emulsion and you can't tile on gypsum or plaster. How does one tile anything in an older property? Do you rip off all the plaster back to the brickwork, then build it back to the right face level with ply? That sounds like a massive pain in the arse, and surely uneconomical.

Maybe I am confused and you actually mean I just cannot put the QRock on the wall, not any wall tile?

how do you work out what you can and cannot fit?
Does anyone have the formula for the maximum sheer forces allowable on plaster for bal bond? So I can work out if other tiles are more acceptable.

Thanks guys

 

[grumpygrouter]

Hi Whitebeam

well the place was built about 50 years ago.

So I was wondering, what the hell do you normally tile onto then?
If you can't tile on emulsion and you can't tile on gypsum or plaster. How does one tile anything in an older property? Do you rip off all the plaster back to the brickwork, then build it back to the right face level with ply? That sounds like a massive pain in the arse, and surely uneconomical.

Maybe I am confused and you actually mean I just cannot put the QRock on the wall, not any wall tile?

how do you work out what you can and cannot fit?
Does anyone have the formula for the maximum sheer forces allowable on plaster for bal bond? So I can work out if other tiles are more acceptable.

Thanks guys

Check out this link

Tiles and Adhesive Weight Per Square Metre - THE TILE SOURCE

 

[White Room]

There's a good chance it maybe sand/cement which can take about 40kg, the finishing plaster would have been siripite which is no longer is used. This maybe an option for you, see if you can scrape the finish off and apply a coat of bal bond (sbr) onto the sand/cement but thin it down to 3-1, if that works out for you it will be ok. Just tap the backing to make sure there are no hollow areas and backing is solid.

You don't mention where your from.

 

[zx10r]

Check out this link

Tiles and Adhesive Weight Per Square Metre - THE TILE SOURCE

Thats great, thanks for the link Grumpy.

So looking at the table I get the following:-

(Worst case) = plaster so can handle a maximum of 20kg/m2

Q-Rock tiles are 600 x 300 x 8mm. Which is 0.00144m3. Density of porcelain is 1968kg/m3, so weight of one tile is 2.83kg. Now for 1m2 I would need 5.56 tiles, so 1m2 of these tiles would weigh 15.72kg.

Now I need to factor in the weight of the adhesive..
According to the table a 3mm bed of adhesive weighs 4.2kg/m2, a 6mm weighs 8.4kg.


Therefore with a 3mm bed I should be OK even with a plaster...BUT if it is recommended to use a thicker bed of 6mm adhesive then I would be over.

3mm adhesive, total weight = 19.92kg/m2 close, but within tolerances.
6mm adhesive, total weight = 24.12kg/m2 over.....

So basically I guess the question now is...what adhesive depth would you recommend.....?

Please check my sums anyone, as it's late and I've had a couple!

Cheers

 

[White Room]

For that size tile your looking at the thicker bed unless your walls are perfectly flat

 

[DHTiling]

If your substrate is flat , you will not need more than a standard modified adhesive bed of no more than 6mm....

 

[zx10r]

There's a good chance it maybe sand/cement which can take about 40kg, the finishing plaster would have been siripite which is no longer is used. This maybe an option for you, see if you can scrape the finish off and apply a coat of bal bond (sbr) onto the sand/cement but thin it down to 3-1, if that works out for you it will be ok. Just tap the backing to make sure there are no hollow areas and backing is solid.

You don't mention where your from.

Hi and thanks for the reply Whitebeam

I'll check it out in more detail tomorrow morning. BUT....I'm pretty sure now it is (about an inch thick) plaster on a sand/cement render on brick.

Would I need to take off the entire inch of plaster all over the area to be tiled?...gulp!

I'm in Bournemouth, Dorset.

 

[zx10r]

For that size tile your looking at the thicker bed unless your walls are perfectly flat

I'll get the level on it tomorrow and let you know....seemed pretty good by eye, but it is an older building and we all know what that means!

 

[zx10r]

If your substrate is flat , you will not need more than a standard modified adhesive bed of no more than 6mm....

Nice! Thats a bit of good news...I was beginning to become a bit glum.

So I'll check the flatness of the walls tomorrow n see where we go from there.....

Thanks again Dave

 

[zx10r]

Nice! Thats a bit of good news...I was beginning to become a bit glum.
So I'll check the flatness of the walls tomorrow n see where we go from there.....
Thanks again Dave

The flatness of the walls seems pretty good, about 2-3mm variance across the walls I intend to tile. I think I might be alright.....

 

[DHTiling]

Use a 10mm trowel then and this will bed down to around 3mm to 4m bed...

2mm to 3mm tolerance in the substrate is within bs standards...

 

[zx10r]

When using Q rock I would advise that you use Tile Protector prior to grouting. It will prevent grout staining the tiles and make the wash down easier. Q rock has quite a rough texture and I have found this product to be a good help.
BAL Adhesives - Products - protective sealer

Hi Yomper

Well I've had a lot of other work on, so only just completed the walls !

I used the protective sealer properly, first coat, wait 15 mins, second coat, wait minimum an hour before use.

All seemed good or so I thought.... I've now washed down three times and there seems to still be a lot of surface "dust". Its the dark grey/black porcelain QRock we went for with the grey BAL WJ grout and Admix GT1. So now I'm thinking of Lithofin. So I guess I have to ask :-

1. why the (not cheap) temp sealer didn't work properly. Did I do something wrong?
2. Would you recommend Lithfin cement remover or some other product for grout dust / haze?

Cheers guys