First time laying Hardie on Saturday

[mache]

Hi Guy's,
Saturday will be my first time laying Hardie boards. Hardie 250 boards are going down onto an 18mm ply, level and deflection free floor (level to within 1/8" across any span). I gather the recommended method is SPF with 6mm notched trowel. This part is going to sound like a silly question but here we go. Hardie will be fixed with turbogold screws, but when do you put these in ? I assume that you lay the boards to the SPF base and let that go off when the boards are bedded and leveled and come back a little later to put the screwes through to secure it all down to avoid the screws diggingon side of the board deeper into the bed than the other. Please confirm.

Also whats your method to ensure they are bedded down. Position, wiggle and check with large level, lay next board and do the same ensuring level with the first board down. Drop it down, couple of taps with a hide mallet ??

Sorry if it sounds silly and basic but want to check i'm using the right methodology.

Thanks
Martin.

 

[Dougs Third Go]

screws go in before adhesive has set mache so it pulls the board down into adhesive. I trowel area, drop the board into it, wiggle it, give it a slap with straight edge at various points then screw, you'll need about 50 screws per board

 

[Ian]

http://www.tilersforums.com/43-tiling-forum/58805-installation-hardiebacker-250-500-a.html

 

[mache]

Doug / Bri,

Thanks for the quick replies and advice. Another quick couple of questions if you don't mind.
I'm guessing you don't need to back butter hardie boards, just comb the floor.
Bri you also say in your well laid out thread, to SBR the floor. was this because it was chipboard or do you
do this in every case. I have marine grade ply as the substrate.
On top of the hardie I will be laying the Impey waterguard membrane. In this case would you still tape and scrim the joints or would you fill using a high quality silicone or gap filling polyurethane adhesive.
Thanks for the support from the forum.
Martin.

 

[Mr Tiler]

if you want my advise mate don't use impey lol where im working it is costing thousands to replace impey systems after just 12 months of usage

 

[White Room]

From my understanding silicone should'nt have contact with the black stuff...

 

[Mr Tiler]

From my understanding silicone should'nt have contact with the black stuff...

god forbid if it does mate not even that there trays bounce like a trampoline. even sealing can be a problem

 

[Ian]

Doug / Bri,

Thanks for the quick replies and advice. Another quick couple of questions if you don't mind.
I'm guessing you don't need to back butter hardie boards, just comb the floor.
Bri you also say in your well laid out thread, to SBR the floor. was this because it was chipboard or do you
do this in every case. I have marine grade ply as the substrate.
On top of the hardie I will be laying the Impey waterguard membrane. In this case would you still tape and scrim the joints or would you fill using a high quality silicone or gap filling polyurethane adhesive.
Thanks for the support from the forum.
Martin.

If you're going to lay a membrane, you don't really need the hardie. Hardie backer is just a suitable surface to tile to, if you're going to impey over it, that becomes null and void, unless you're using it to gain extra height.

 

[White Room]

god forbid if it does mate not even that there trays bounce like a trampoline. even sealing can be a problem

That depends on the kind of installation that was done, a year is pretty poor.

 

[Mr Tiler]

That depends on the kind of installation that was done, a year is pretty poor.

its the system itself mate, a floor that has been strengthened twice under the tray and tiles still crack means theres too much play in the tray itself. and its half a site at over 3,000 a time

 

[prceramics]

if the floor is flat you can get away with a 4mm notched trowel, why use more addy than needed

 

[mache]

Bri,
Not using for height but I am fitting Electric UFH, by using hardie this should allow me to use a 150W element cable rather than 100w normally recommended for direct to wood substrate. Also give me a bit extra thickness to bed the floor temperature sensor into.

Whitebeam, Waterguard is the newer membrane from Impey rather than the older bitumen based tile safe product that I think youm did have to be careful which products came into cantact with although I think it was more expoy products that had the issue.

Mr Teabag, Interesting comment, upto now I've not seen particulary bad comments on the impey systems. Do you know which versions of the membranes, formers were used in the installs you are working on, I thought the aqua decks were one of the most rigid out there(subject to correct installation)

 

[mache]

if the floor is flat you can get away with a 4mm notched trowel, why use more addy than needed

4mm it will be then, appreciate all the inputs

 

[One Day]

Impey "anything" is more hassle than it's worth in my experience.
Pretty much all the failed wet floors I've attended have involved either their trays or membranes.
That's partly down to the sales channels - builders and plumbers as well as sheer volume of sales but there are plenty of ways to muck up the installation of Impey gear.
Other systems are much safer (poss' easier?) to install in that there is either a right way or a wrong way.
Too many in-betweens and vague areas with Impey I'm afraid.

 

[Mr Tiler]

Whitebeam, Waterguard is the newer membrane from Impey rather than the older bitumen based tile safe product that I think youm did have to be careful which products came into cantact with although I think it was more expoy products that had the issue.

Mr Teabag, Interesting comment, upto now I've not seen particulary bad comments on the impey systems. Do you know which versions of the membranes, formers were used in the installs you are working on, I thought the aqua decks were one of the most rigid out there(subject to correct installation)

hi bud, I wouldn't of commented without knowledge. I will deffinately try to find out what system has been used. all i know is an impey system has been used throughout all of the building sites i currently am working on and it has not gone well, 12 months down the line they are all failing and it is not down to installation. and very recently a wetroom repair that had previously been repaired they tried to strengthen underneath the tray for a second time and once my big backside stood on top was bouncing (i could even see it moving let alone the guy with his eye against the ground)... its costing thousands per property as it is all mosaic stone too!

 

[Time's Ran Out]

I find it very unnerving that 2 minute tilers can pass such scathing comments on products that they have never used and have no knowledge that the method of installation has been completed correctly!
I have used Impey products for over 8 years and have never been called back to any wet room construction undertaken.
My advice to the OP would be to read all manufacturers instructions prior to purchase and not rely on opinions from 'tilers' with no experience!

 

[Sean Kelly]

To make life easier use an impact driver to drive in the screws.
To make life cheaper use Reisser screws from Toolstation http://www.toolstation.com/shop/Screws+Fixings//Reisser+Cutter+Screw+40+x+25mm/d/sd/p95628
Stagger the boards like brickbond.
Cut the boards with a Hardiebacker carbon tipped blade (about £7).

Once the boards are glued and screwed you can tile straight away.

 

[jonnyc]

hi bud, I wouldn't of commented without knowledge. I will deffinately try to find out what system has been used. all i know is an impey system has been used throughout all of the building sites i currently am working on and it has not gone well, 12 months down the line they are all failing and it is not down to installation. and very recently a wetroom repair that had previously been repaired they tried to strengthen underneath the tray for a second time and once my big backside stood on top was bouncing (i could even see it moving let alone the guy with his eye against the ground)... its costing thousands per property as it is all mosaic stone too!

i don't have spec in front of me but my basic understanding is that the trays need to be solid bedded in first instance before tanking applied. Done plenty of these wet dec impey systems and only problem seems to be if tray not solid bedded.
yes they are pigs to do but do work if manufacture instruction followed.
ash please explain why there are problems even though manufacture instructions followed.

 

[mache]

To make life easier use an impact driver to drive in the screws.
To make life cheaper use Reisser screws from Toolstation http://www.toolstation.com/shop/Screws+Fixings//Reisser+Cutter+Screw+40+x+25mm/d/sd/p95628
Stagger the boards like brickbond.
Cut the boards with a Hardiebacker carbon tipped blade (about £7).

Once the boards are glued and screwed you can tile straight away.

Impact Driver - Check, brilliant tools
Screws, - Already got the Turbogolds after a few recommendations, but had seen Reisser and Spax mentioned in the past. Thanks for the input though.
Hardie score and snap blade - I've been robbed !!!! paid £9 for mine...

 

[prceramics]

The hardie knife is quite good it took me about a year to buy one was always using Stanley knifes I never use there screws I get the turbo gold 25mm from screwfix , hardie is a nightmare stuff to cut if you just need a bit off, usually use the grinder outside with a mask

 

[mache]

hi bud, I wouldn't of commented without knowledge. I will deffinately try to find out what system has been used. all i know is an impey system has been used throughout all of the building sites i currently am working on and it has not gone well, 12 months down the line they are all failing and it is not down to installation. and very recently a wetroom repair that had previously been repaired they tried to strengthen underneath the tray for a second time and once my big backside stood on top was bouncing (i could even see it moving let alone the guy with his eye against the ground)... its costing thousands per property as it is all mosaic stone too!

Don't get me wrong, not doubting what you found, but would be interested to hear more about what was installed if you can find out. e.g. if the trays were the older flat bottom or the matrix ribbed versions. Membrane identification should be fairly easy as it will be the bitumen based tilesafe or the waterguard co polymer. Any word on site with regard response from Impey on reason for failure? sounds like a site of this size the first port of call would be to get the manufacturers in for investigation. Please do post what information you find as I am interested.

 

[Mr Tiler]

Don't get me wrong, not doubting what you found, but would be interested to hear more about what was installed if you can find out. e.g. if the trays were the older flat bottom or the matrix ribbed versions. Membrane identification should be fairly easy as it will be the bitumen based tilesafe or the waterguard co polymer. Any word on site with regard response from Impey on reason for failure? sounds like a site of this size the first port of call would be to get the manufacturers in for investigation. Please do post what information you find as I am interested.

well as you stated yourself mate it will be bitumen based as already stated you cant use silicone in any areas which is ridiculous and should be unheard of, as for the rest I can not comment but will by the end of next week when I have a chat with the gaffa. main reason for failure is both tanking membrane and tray.... the tray after a unreal amount of strength was still bouncing and the tanking system was failing... even once pulling up the bitumen we found that it was damp underneath so what does that say? and that specific room hadn't been used in a week or so

 

[Bathfix Bob]

When screwing down the Hardiebacker.....I find myself putting more screws round the edges than are needed at around 100mm centres.

Does anyone else do this for added piece of mind or am I wasting screws?

 

[TJ Smiler]

If you are having underfloor heating why not use insulation boards rather than Hardie, same price but much easier to cut and designed for UF................Or have i missed something on this thread?

 

[Qwerty]

If you are having underfloor heating why not use insulation boards rather than Hardie, same price but much easier to cut and designed for UF................Or have i missed something on this thread?

You are quite right, I thought the same.