F
faithhealer
Agree dean, all my refs have contact nos and at least two have checked up and given me the job.
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Agree dean, all my refs have contact nos and at least two have checked up and given me the job.
B
BTP TILING
On reccomendation!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
F
frankenfurter
Very true seems like websites are now the CV of old, full of exaggerations and lies.
The problem with recommendations and referrals even though they are the best way of getting business, is that they are based on the customers impression of your work. And I'm sure some customers can't see detail at all, so it's no fool proof way of weeding out bad tilers.
I met a tiler just the other day who been brought in to tile a kitchen floor on recommendation (looked like a gypo and turned up in an escort), he'd finished a quarter of the floor by the time I arrived on site. He was gone 2 hours later, after he'd removed all the tiles he laid and cleaned them off.
Even though the kitchen floor was nothing to do with my contract, there's no way I'm going to stand back and let a cowboy take someones hard earned money. He was sent packing and I brought in someone I could trust; reputation is everything.
Premtiler, sounds like you have an excellent attitude toward your career and talking a whole lot of sense. Commitment to quality and continual improvement of skill will make you the tiler you want to be, think outside the box and the worlds your oyster mate. As I'm sure you learned in the army, there's only first place; everything else is losing.
Personally I'm no fan of NVQ's and the emphasis placed upon them. Especially when you see what they consist of, basic, basic, basic....
Ta Frank.
R
RockCeramics
A health and safety is a 1 full day test. first aid course are approx 4 day`s.
If i said that the construction skills centre would set up a 2 week course test.
this would give you another card to produce to all your customers which they also give you a protable card scanner (bit like the home delivers get you to sign on each delivery) get the customer to scan and sign, before each job.
and i said that this is going to cost you £700 which would also mean 2 week`s lose of work. plus travel + lodgings which could cost a total £900
and you would have to get this to work.
what would your thoughts be on this?
If i said that the construction skills centre would set up a 2 week course test.
this would give you another card to produce to all your customers which they also give you a protable card scanner (bit like the home delivers get you to sign on each delivery) get the customer to scan and sign, before each job.
and i said that this is going to cost you £700 which would also mean 2 week`s lose of work. plus travel + lodgings which could cost a total £900
and you would have to get this to work.
what would your thoughts be on this?
Last edited by a moderator:
S
Stan001
A great thread and probably one that’s maybe sensitive to forum peeps, and the ones that have responded have given excellent considered responses.
Ok – my background then my 2 cents on the subject.
My background: My background is engineering, I have a diploma in electronic engineering, I’ve designed parts for mobile phones and the electronics for commercial aircraft and fighter jets plus lots of other stuff. Its obvious that in certain ‘trades’ you need to be well qualified to do the job. This is not the case in tiling, people can ‘get away with it’ (admittedly by doing crap jobs – but that’s not the point). The public don’t perceive it as being a skilled job (until it all goes wrong), lots of great reviews for gardeners and plumbers that have done tiling on the bid per job sites!
I came to tiling via a strange route, I quit my job as a director for a large electronics company and invested my money by going into building (I’m actually now NHBC registered) and due to my work on my properties, work prior to setting up the building company, and people asking me I drifted into doing tiling (essentially I love ceramics and stone or I wouldn’t do it). I have been tiling more than 3 years (in fact on and off – for many years!) but only decided to go and do a 4 week course (the professional level 2 for the NVQ2) at Diamond in the last year. So very back to front I guess. (and fyi – yes I did learn loads and it did make me a better tiler even given my background).
I would like to see tiling regulated like electrical installation and plumbing. Id like to see all the trades regulated. Both for commercial and domestics. I think it would improve our quality, protect the customers (who are the only ones that matter) quality, and stop plumbers and DIYers doing our jobs (we don’t bid to install boilers do we – and yes before you ask – I technically could no problem!). There needs to be a defined line set for what a DIYer can and cannot do, because I also don’t believe in the nanny state. We have lots of DIYers on this forum who should be encouraged to do their own jobs, non critical jobs like splashbacks and even flooring maybe (for themselves but not others – I don’t know). Part P captures this quite well in electrics in that you must get a sparky to do 90% of jobs and critical testing, but the DIYer can extend a simple circuit (we need the equivalent). Why – well I consider we actually do some dangerous work – how’s about this – a DIYer is perfectly ‘allowed’ to install 32kg per sq metres stone above a bath on 18kg per sq m skimmed plaster – humm!!!! Above people heads – washing the kiddies, tile falls off and kills someone, its only a matter of time! And how many are aware of the change in fixing methods required for tiles above 3metres changes in recommendations ref tanking etc.
The problem is as has been pointed out, the customers don’t care. Brickies, chippies and others fall under this ‘don’t care’ category too. The ‘trade’ turns up in a white van sign-written with a pile of Makita and DeWalt in the back and its assumed he’s a chippy or bricky or tiler or whatever.
Gas Safe seem to be getting their act together. Unless you are registered you cant have the badge, if you fly the badge and you aren’t you can be prosecuted.
As for what is best apprenticeship or college or muti-week courses. I don’t know, I’ve only done the mutiweek plus my years of setting tiles. Its well known that that some of the colleges are failing people who often end up on muti-week courses, the colleges don’t have the facilities nor focused expertise. The same lecturer is probably teaching woodwork one hour, bricklaying the next then tiling the next, he’s probably never been paid for fixing tile in his life (its not the same as the dedicated training courses), and have you actually worked out how many hours a year a college course is (please do, its not many hours a week, its just a muti-week course spread out over a year or more). So having said that, any tiler from the college system gets my total respect. As for apprenticeships? Humm – how long is spend carrying addy bags and mixing addy and grout and cleaning up. Its total pot luck if an apprentice tiler gets hooked up with a good or bad pro. And as already mentioned a tiler may be a pro but a poor teacher. Plus I’m guessing that you could count pro tilers who meet all the criteria and have the financial and workload to take on an apprentice on one hand.
I also (even just from my experience and observation of the trades on my sites and others I’ve been working on) totally believe there are many many time served and experienced tilers and other trades doing a totally crap job. In the last month two of my jobs have been fixing and replacing others work, one was a DIYer but the other is a full time tiler attached to a large building company who’s work is rouge gallery atrocious.
So when we eventually do have a proper qualification system (which should cover technical and practical with tests of each) it should be repeated every few years! The building regs and the materials and specifications are changing all the time – we need retesting ever 3 years at min. And that includes people who did an apprenticeship 20 years ago – in fact they should be first in the queue imho.
I welcome the day when we regulate, certificate and regularly test not just tiling but all the trades. I’ve fixed pro-tilers work, I’ve fired pro-plumbers (fully qualified who don’t know building regs and have poor quality work), I’ve fired chippies (time served, a foreman of building sites, his work was crap). We need the quality brought back into building. Coming from an aerospace background I am bluntly shocked by our building industry.
I will continue to work in the system we have now and when it tightens up I wont be moaning, I’ll be first in line to get whatever qualifications they make us do as I love tiling. I will learn all my life (in fact next month I’m off on another course for decoupling, isolation joints and underfloor heating) and try and be the best tiler in my area.
My continued gripe is BS5385 compliance. As regulars here will know its recommended not compulsory. Change that overnight and you immediately get rid of / scare off loads of these ‘have a go’s’, because you can make it possible to prosecute anyone who’s work is found not to be in compliance. As tiles are up there a long time that should scare off some of the dross.
Ref costs of all this – its recovered when our prices raise to cover training plus time and materials to do a full spec job. Plumbers and sparkies charge more because they can and they have to leave a signed self certification (and a copy to NAPIT etc! so monitored too) Whilst tiling is a cross-over trade with DIY then draw your own conclusions ref me quoting a job with decoupling, isolation joints, tanking and an 18mm floor when a DIYer quotes against me leaving all that out (hey ho – its not seen anyway and I don’t have to have it!!!)
Bring in regulation asap – for tiling and all the trades! I welcome it.
In answer to your question – interview your tiler (at least 3 tilers - you will smoke out the good and bad ones), in future hopefully, ask for his qually card and trade association membership.
Ok – my background then my 2 cents on the subject.
My background: My background is engineering, I have a diploma in electronic engineering, I’ve designed parts for mobile phones and the electronics for commercial aircraft and fighter jets plus lots of other stuff. Its obvious that in certain ‘trades’ you need to be well qualified to do the job. This is not the case in tiling, people can ‘get away with it’ (admittedly by doing crap jobs – but that’s not the point). The public don’t perceive it as being a skilled job (until it all goes wrong), lots of great reviews for gardeners and plumbers that have done tiling on the bid per job sites!
I came to tiling via a strange route, I quit my job as a director for a large electronics company and invested my money by going into building (I’m actually now NHBC registered) and due to my work on my properties, work prior to setting up the building company, and people asking me I drifted into doing tiling (essentially I love ceramics and stone or I wouldn’t do it). I have been tiling more than 3 years (in fact on and off – for many years!) but only decided to go and do a 4 week course (the professional level 2 for the NVQ2) at Diamond in the last year. So very back to front I guess. (and fyi – yes I did learn loads and it did make me a better tiler even given my background).
I would like to see tiling regulated like electrical installation and plumbing. Id like to see all the trades regulated. Both for commercial and domestics. I think it would improve our quality, protect the customers (who are the only ones that matter) quality, and stop plumbers and DIYers doing our jobs (we don’t bid to install boilers do we – and yes before you ask – I technically could no problem!). There needs to be a defined line set for what a DIYer can and cannot do, because I also don’t believe in the nanny state. We have lots of DIYers on this forum who should be encouraged to do their own jobs, non critical jobs like splashbacks and even flooring maybe (for themselves but not others – I don’t know). Part P captures this quite well in electrics in that you must get a sparky to do 90% of jobs and critical testing, but the DIYer can extend a simple circuit (we need the equivalent). Why – well I consider we actually do some dangerous work – how’s about this – a DIYer is perfectly ‘allowed’ to install 32kg per sq metres stone above a bath on 18kg per sq m skimmed plaster – humm!!!! Above people heads – washing the kiddies, tile falls off and kills someone, its only a matter of time! And how many are aware of the change in fixing methods required for tiles above 3metres changes in recommendations ref tanking etc.
The problem is as has been pointed out, the customers don’t care. Brickies, chippies and others fall under this ‘don’t care’ category too. The ‘trade’ turns up in a white van sign-written with a pile of Makita and DeWalt in the back and its assumed he’s a chippy or bricky or tiler or whatever.
Gas Safe seem to be getting their act together. Unless you are registered you cant have the badge, if you fly the badge and you aren’t you can be prosecuted.
As for what is best apprenticeship or college or muti-week courses. I don’t know, I’ve only done the mutiweek plus my years of setting tiles. Its well known that that some of the colleges are failing people who often end up on muti-week courses, the colleges don’t have the facilities nor focused expertise. The same lecturer is probably teaching woodwork one hour, bricklaying the next then tiling the next, he’s probably never been paid for fixing tile in his life (its not the same as the dedicated training courses), and have you actually worked out how many hours a year a college course is (please do, its not many hours a week, its just a muti-week course spread out over a year or more). So having said that, any tiler from the college system gets my total respect. As for apprenticeships? Humm – how long is spend carrying addy bags and mixing addy and grout and cleaning up. Its total pot luck if an apprentice tiler gets hooked up with a good or bad pro. And as already mentioned a tiler may be a pro but a poor teacher. Plus I’m guessing that you could count pro tilers who meet all the criteria and have the financial and workload to take on an apprentice on one hand.
I also (even just from my experience and observation of the trades on my sites and others I’ve been working on) totally believe there are many many time served and experienced tilers and other trades doing a totally crap job. In the last month two of my jobs have been fixing and replacing others work, one was a DIYer but the other is a full time tiler attached to a large building company who’s work is rouge gallery atrocious.
So when we eventually do have a proper qualification system (which should cover technical and practical with tests of each) it should be repeated every few years! The building regs and the materials and specifications are changing all the time – we need retesting ever 3 years at min. And that includes people who did an apprenticeship 20 years ago – in fact they should be first in the queue imho.
I welcome the day when we regulate, certificate and regularly test not just tiling but all the trades. I’ve fixed pro-tilers work, I’ve fired pro-plumbers (fully qualified who don’t know building regs and have poor quality work), I’ve fired chippies (time served, a foreman of building sites, his work was crap). We need the quality brought back into building. Coming from an aerospace background I am bluntly shocked by our building industry.
I will continue to work in the system we have now and when it tightens up I wont be moaning, I’ll be first in line to get whatever qualifications they make us do as I love tiling. I will learn all my life (in fact next month I’m off on another course for decoupling, isolation joints and underfloor heating) and try and be the best tiler in my area.
My continued gripe is BS5385 compliance. As regulars here will know its recommended not compulsory. Change that overnight and you immediately get rid of / scare off loads of these ‘have a go’s’, because you can make it possible to prosecute anyone who’s work is found not to be in compliance. As tiles are up there a long time that should scare off some of the dross.
Ref costs of all this – its recovered when our prices raise to cover training plus time and materials to do a full spec job. Plumbers and sparkies charge more because they can and they have to leave a signed self certification (and a copy to NAPIT etc! so monitored too) Whilst tiling is a cross-over trade with DIY then draw your own conclusions ref me quoting a job with decoupling, isolation joints, tanking and an 18mm floor when a DIYer quotes against me leaving all that out (hey ho – its not seen anyway and I don’t have to have it!!!)
Bring in regulation asap – for tiling and all the trades! I welcome it.
In answer to your question – interview your tiler (at least 3 tilers - you will smoke out the good and bad ones), in future hopefully, ask for his qually card and trade association membership.
S
Stan001
ps - sorry for the long post - but probably the most important subject to discuss on here i think.
D
Diamond Pool Finishers
i knew the forum was ready to talk this through, and I'm loving all the points of view, please keep them coming or even add more to what you have said, its all food for thought, 
I know I'm a relative begginner as tiling goes, having done a course but I have to say this. I know a builder and 2 plumbers that also do their own tiling and have been for years.They are self learnt and when I asked them questions about tiling they really did not have much idea. They think its ok to prime with PVA and use a dry cutter costing £9 from lidl. Everything is laid with ready mixed mastic and having seen a couple of their jobs in the past that leave alot to be desired. I know I'm only course trained but I strive to learn all I can and strive to do a perfect job. I take pride in what I do and love doing it. And this forum has also learnt me bucket fulls. Merry Christmas to all tilers on this forum.
A
arthurdaley
Nothing but nothing beats experience. You can do as many courses long or short as you like, but until you've gained hands on experience they mean very little, it takes time to gain the confidence to go into someones house and start ripping things apart and then start making good. Courses/qualifications can't give you that confidence or know how, they are just a stepping stone into the real world of tiling, or any other trade come to that.
A good tradesman will be conscientious about his work he should have a good eye for detail, be able to visualise the finished room before he starts, identify any problem areas and give good sound advice to the customer at the time of quoting for a job, thats a good starting point to picking a good tiler/tradesman.
A good tradesman will be conscientious about his work he should have a good eye for detail, be able to visualise the finished room before he starts, identify any problem areas and give good sound advice to the customer at the time of quoting for a job, thats a good starting point to picking a good tiler/tradesman.
C
Colour Republic
Sadly I think you're wrong and that is the very problem Arthur
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