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Ajax123

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Are we returning to autocratic and oerbearing victorian ideals.........read the following article which appeared in the construction press today........ What do you think

[h=1]Cable proposes 'no fault' firing[/h]
1331883704_alan-sugar.jpg
The government has launched a review of employment law with a view to making it easier to fire people.
The review is in response to concerns among ministers that current dismissal procedures are too onerous and complex.
The government has published a call for evidence from employers, employees and ay other interested parties.
Views are also requested on the idea of compensated no-fault dismissal for ‘micro-businesses’ ' those with fewer than 10 employees. Under such a system, a business would be able to dismiss a worker from a micro-business, where no fault had been identified on the part of the employee, with the payment of a set amount of compensation.
Business secretary Vince Cable said: “The UK already has one of the world’s most flexible, adaptable labour markets, making it one of our strengths and it stands up very well in international comparisons. However, we recognise that there is room for improvement which balances the needs of business while ensuring that the necessary employment protections are upheld.
“We are already implementing a radical package of reforms to the employment tribunal system and increasing the qualifying period for unfair dismissal from one to two years. These are all measures that will help improve the way businesses hire, manage and end a working relationship.
“But we also recognise that not all jobs work out for both parties – the staff member doesn’t quite fit or simply the relationship has irretrievably broken down. And for micros in particular, who often don’t have legal or HR teams, the process to let a staff member go can be a daunting and complicated process. We want to give businesses the confidence to hire new staff and make sure when a dismissal needs to be made, they aren’t tied up in red tape. This is an effort to see how extensive the problem is and shed some light on the desire for a change to the rules.”
For the trade union movement, TUC general secretary Brendan Barber responded: “Scrapping protection against unfair dismissal, even for people who have given years of loyal service, will do absolutely nothing to boost the economy. If people are constantly in fear of losing their jobs it will lead to even less consumer spending.
“Losing your job is one of the worst things that can happen to anyone, especially when unemployment is so high. Employees should only be dismissed for fair reasons, as set out in current laws. The clue is in the name - unfair dismissal.
“Employers already have powers to make fair dismissals for misconduct or poor performance. Giving bosses the right to act unfairly may go down well on the backbenches, but it will horrify employees.
“But while this proposal does nothing for growth, it does show the kind of economy those close to the Prime Minister want to create - one in which nasty bosses are given full license to undermine those trying to maintain decent standards.”
 
D

Deleted member 9966

i think it s a good idea, you can get- rid if an employee that is under performing, but on the other hand it would make employees more inclined to change job's more often which is good to imo......

you can already do this under current rules. it simply requires effort from managers. the problem here isn't how to get rid of employees more quickly. the problem here is having managers with the tools and brains to run a business and employees who wish to put the effort in to work. money should be invested in upskilling managers and making the current rules easier to understand.

and changing jobs frequently is not good for british industries. companies spend huge amounts of time and money training people and if those people then just disappear off to other jobs at their fancy, well, employers are going to be less inclined to take new people on. I for one don't like "butterflies" - people that flit from job to job never staying more than 12-18 months.
 
D

Deleted member 9966

Bad experiences with the hr dept in my previous employer.

Not generalising I meant that they need to learn to do their job better too. Long long story.

In my experience, it isn't the HR people that are inexperienced or lacking in knowledge. More often than not, they are constrained by management views and working practices that are out of date.

Employment Law is a huge beast and Vince Cable is dabbling in something that works well as it is. Businesses will not benefit from being able to dismiss someone with very little comeback on them, because the dismissed employee will then go straight to Tribunal to seek redress. And then both employees and employers end up lining the pockets of the lawyers to unpick a situation that would have been relatively straightforward if management has merely got their act together sooner, gathered evidence of whatever the problem, sat down with the employee to seek improvement and gave them time to try and improve. It then costs nothing because you have followed the correct process and if the employee still fails to improve, you can dismiss. This can be about underperformance, lateness, sickness absence, misconduct, gross misconduct.
 

widler

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personally i think you should be able to get rid of who ever when ever you want,without paying redundancy or being taken to court.

if a employee is useless you should be able to get shut,if the business is struggling,say because of recession,you should be able to get shut without having to pay over 10 grand out in redundancy to 2 employees,who have been kept in employment,paying them good money for years,keeping a roof over there heads,feeding there kids,even when times are hard,even if it means the employer aint took a wage for nearly 18 months out of 24,but still under bloody laws you have to pay them or be taken to the cleaners.
to much is given to employees and not enough to employers IMO,and 12 times out of ten,it is only employees who agree with the current laws and i don't know 1 employer who agrees with it.

gosh, i was ranting then ;)
 
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D

Deleted member 9966

personally i think you should be able to get rid of who ever when ever you want,without paying redundancy or being taken to court.

if a employee is useless you should be able to get shut,if the business is struggling,say because of recession,you should be able to get shut without having to pay over 10 grand out in redundancy to 2 employees,who have been kept in employment,paying them good money for years,keeping a roof over there heads,feeding there kids,even when times are hard,even if it means the employer aint took a wage for nearly 18 months out of 24,but still under bloody laws you have to pay them or be taken to the cleaners.
to much is given to employees and not enough to employers IMO,and 12 times out of ten,it is only employees who agree with the current laws and i don't know 1 employer who agrees with it.

gosh, i was ranting then ;)

you can do it this way too.... provided that your contracts of employment state that the employer is entitled to lay people off at times of downturn. but the chances of you getting employees to sign up to those terms is pretty slim.

I agree, employment law is onerous on very small businesses but it works very well at keeping large, multi-national, massive profit-making companies in check.
 
M

Muse2k8

In my experience, it isn't the HR people that are inexperienced or lacking in knowledge. More often than not, they are constrained by management views and working practices that are out of date.

Employment Law is a huge beast and Vince Cable is dabbling in something that works well as it is. Businesses will not benefit from being able to dismiss someone with very little comeback on them, because the dismissed employee will then go straight to Tribunal to seek redress. And then both employees and employers end up lining the pockets of the lawyers to unpick a situation that would have been relatively straightforward if management has merely got their act together sooner, gathered evidence of whatever the problem, sat down with the employee to seek improvement and gave them time to try and improve. It then costs nothing because you have followed the correct process and if the employee still fails to improve, you can dismiss. This can be about underperformance, lateness, sickness absence, misconduct, gross misconduct.

I agree... Just in this case even though my employee was useless and damaging the business and losing sales by pretty much slating the product (in one instance a gentleman had been in to us in the morning and went all over town during the day and then came back because he loved our product, this staff member still managed to talk him out of it!).

Our policies were that HR dealt with all disciplinaries and dismissals from head office and they still wouldn't do anything about it!
 
D

Deleted member 9966

I agree... Just in this case even though my employee was useless and damaging the business and losing sales by pretty much slating the product (in one instance a gentleman had been in to us in the morning and went all over town during the day and then came back because he loved our product, this staff member still managed to talk him out of it!).

Our policies were that HR dealt with all disciplinaries and dismissals from head office and they still wouldn't do anything about it!

so technically not HR that were the problem, the company's approach to how things were handled was wrong. there's no point having HR handle disciplinaries or under performers because HR are not the people that manage them on a daily basis. managers manage, HR people are there to make sure managers get it right.
 
D

Deleted member 1779

At a factory on our Estate the boss has 12 workers and had a disruptive employee. Called him into the office and gave him £2000 in cash and said thats it you are fired and its all you are getting. If you want the cash sign the form. If you want to sue leave the cash on the table. Employee took the money. Never heard of again. Set an example to the other guys to tow the line. PS: What the employee did wrong (the last straw) was take his 5 year old child into work on Saturday. And he was filmed.... So they worked quickly to get rid of him.

Not saying any rights or wrongs just thats what they did.
 

widler

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you can do it this way too.... provided that your contracts of employment state that the employer is entitled to lay people off at times of downturn. but the chances of you getting employees to sign up to those terms is pretty slim.

I agree, employment law is onerous on very small businesses but it works very well at keeping large, multi-national, massive profit-making companies in check.
aye,agree GRR,its always the little people who pay the price.

i have a employee at the mo,fractured his wrist playing football,so has got a sicknote for 8 weeks,he is taking all that 8 weeks as well,and the way he is talking it will be more,i now have had to employ a lad to do a job which he could do with one hand,but he would rather stay at home with his SSP and put his feet up.
I have been back to work straight away with a broken shoulder also 2 weeks after i had my appendics out,both when i was serving my time in the 80's,i wanted to work,and was frighterned of loosing my job,
i also went back to work last year the week after i came out of hospital with a bleed on my brain,just so i was not leaving the lads to try and get the work done.
some people think that they are doing you a favour by them working for you,when in fact its the other way around,we are the ones taking risks,so we are the ones who should reap the benefits ,when and IF they materialise,which to most small firms,its a rarity
 
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D

Deleted member 9966

Widler

if there are reasonable adjustments you can make to this lad's working environment so that he can do certain jobs requiring only the use of one hand, you are quite well within your rights to ask him to return to his GP and find out whether these adjustments are suitable bearing in mind the fractures. Fair enough, he might not be fit to do the manual work associated with your trade, but there's nothing to stop him booking materials, overseeing deliveries, ringing customers/suppliers, doing some paperwork etc. That way he can be back at work earning his full pay.

Better for him to be at work instead of sitting at home. You can always ask. If you don't ask, you don't get.
 

widler

TF
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Widler

if there are reasonable adjustments you can make to this lad's working environment so that he can do certain jobs requiring only the use of one hand, you are quite well within your rights to ask him to return to his GP and find out whether these adjustments are suitable bearing in mind the fractures. Fair enough, he might not be fit to do the manual work associated with your trade, but there's nothing to stop him booking materials, overseeing deliveries, ringing customers/suppliers, doing some paperwork etc. That way he can be back at work earning his full pay.

Better for him to be at work instead of sitting at home. You can always ask. If you don't ask, you don't get.
trust me,i have asked,his reply,these are his words "nah,ive got another 2 weeks,then pot off,then xray,and maybe if its right back to work".
personally its about what i have done for him this past 2 years,helping him out ect ect, he is taking the urine,i let my lads do what they want,im not a stress head,im a good boss,ive never had a lad do this to me,i expect as much respect as i give them.
but when he comes back,no more picking him up and dropping him off at his door,no more early darts,no more days off when we are quite with pay,no more using his phone in work time,his life is gonna be hell :smilewinkgrin:
 
D

Deleted member 9966

trust me,i have asked,his reply,these are his words "nah,ive got another 2 weeks,then pot off,then xray,and maybe if its right back to work".
personally its about what i have done for him this past 2 years,helping him out ect ect, he is taking the urine,i let my lads do what they want,im not a stress head,im a good boss,ive never had a lad do this to me,i expect as much respect as i give them.
but when he comes back,no more picking him up and dropping him off at his door,no more early darts,no more days off when we are quite with pay,no more using his phone in work time,his life is gonna be hell :smilewinkgrin:

more fool him for accepting his situation. jobseekers allowance is less than SSP :smilewinkgrin:
 
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