jasper
TF
Happy Christmas to everyone and I hope 2019 is a very successful year for all.
I'm looking for a bit of help with Ardex Grout from anyone who has used it or better still, uses it frequently. I've had a job that has gone horribly wrong. Long story short, the day after grouting the floor tiles on the first floor of a new build, we went onto site to find a large amount of the Ardex FS Grout Innocent Black had gone white. Now the initial reaction is probably 'it is efflorescence'. Hear me out.
Tiles are porcelain 600mm x 600mm. Build up is Alpha Hemi Hydrate screed ( totally and utterly dried - and i mean bone dry ). Primed with Ardex P51, Ardex X78 adhesive, Ditra 25, X78 adhesive ( 6mm bed to facilitate levels around the ali windows/doors) then 600mm x 600mm porcelain tiles ( Porcelanosa Urbatek range ). Left for 6 weeks prior to grouting. 2mm grout joint.
Grout - Ardex FS Grout - Innocent Black. 10Kg bags. Full bag mixed. Instructions from ardex were 3litres water per 10kg bag. We did 2.9litres water ready to add final 100ml but felt mix was already a bit too wet. Called Ardex technical, and spoke to their technical guy on the road who didn't know the requirements but said mix should hold on the grout float at 90degrees. We read the data sheet out to him. Clearly mix was too wet for this so added a little more powder from a new 10kg bag, same batch, at his instruction.
Site conditions - as perfect as perfect can be. Seriously. No other trades on site during tiling and grouting. Site meticulously clean. Clear working area. Nice comfortable ambient temperature ( heating not on ). Humidity is what I would describe as normal ( dehumidifiers used at the relevant drying points so the property felt like a normal house and not a damp site ) By this i mean it felt like a nice normal air quality. Some sites feel damp in the air from the wet trades. We have been on tiling duty for a considerably long time and have been the only trade on site. Site was not plastered, it was dry lined and painting was completed back in June. All windows and doors were done a year ago.
Grouting done with a grout float, then floor wiped over once ( once only) with very little water re-introduced to joint at the point that the grout was just biting. We couldn't have left it longer. No washboy used.
You may ask why we were so particular with the process - well, in the summer we had grouted 2 thirds of the ground floor ( last third is on a lower level so seperate and still needs to be grouted). The next day, we had noticed small patches of efflorescence and immediately called Ardex. They advised we had washed too early but not to worry as Lithofin will sort it out, but to leave the grout for a few weeks before attempting the acid clean. We accepeted this advice as we hadn't used FS before. Since then, that floor has been covered with a breathable membrance to keep it clean but allowing it to dry. Keen to avoid any possbility of washing too early or introducing too much water on the first floor, we were anal about both the prep and application and clean up on the first floor. Ground floor batch of grout is a different batch to the first floor due to unavailable quantities at purchase.
Back to our current problem. So, the day after grouting we go back in and find a large percentage of the black grout is white. We called Ardex and spoke to their 'expert' who asked what else had we expected with black grout! Not the answer I was looking for! He advised it was the moisture from their X78 escaping through the 2mm grout joint as that moisture had to escape somewhere and with the Ditra25 below, the grout joint was the only passage and all cement based grouts would suffer the same, especially the dark colours. The grout bag says allow 24hours before grouting - we left it 6 weeks. Ardex told me over the phone their X78 will take a year to dry!
They advised 'Bob' at Lithofin would help.
Bob is the Oracle at Lithofin. I keep stock of the cleaners/residue removers etc., so tried his recommendations to the letter and on chatting to him again the next day, raked out some of the grout to find it white all the way through in places. At best it was lighter than the leftover grout that had solidified in the bucket. Our only choice was to rake it all out - not fun times.
Now Ardex have been awful about this. They are saying it is installer error. This job alone has had 3 pallets of X78, 2 palletts of x77 and they advised they couldn't afford to send someone to site. Then they are saying the site is near the coast edge therefore it is windchill causing the problem - WHAT?? Then they say the site is unfinished - not sure what how many new builds are grouted when the site is completely finsihed - to be clear, internally, all that is left is skirting, door linings and doors, second fix electrical and second fix bathrooms. The grouting couldn't be left any longer in the process. Then they are saying the site is unheated and cold without even setting foot in the place. Their own expert says it takes a year for the adhesive to dry, however it is installer error.
We are now in the situation where part of the house is grouted Innocent Black so we have no choice but to do the rest, but I'm scared to do it incase of a repeat. We raked the 2 rooms out on day 3 and my hands still haven't recovered - it took all day into the evening with no skin left on parts on my hands. Has anyone any helpful suggestions? I have never experienced problems like this before. We now have the underfloor heating back on to hopefully remove any moisture in the adhesive before grouting but i'm not sure this will make a difference. When salts come out through cement based products it doesn't normally happen overnight does it? We have no choice but to use the Innocent Black FS
pre wipe over next morning
Best we could do after going down to max concentration as per Bob's instructions.
I'm looking for a bit of help with Ardex Grout from anyone who has used it or better still, uses it frequently. I've had a job that has gone horribly wrong. Long story short, the day after grouting the floor tiles on the first floor of a new build, we went onto site to find a large amount of the Ardex FS Grout Innocent Black had gone white. Now the initial reaction is probably 'it is efflorescence'. Hear me out.
Tiles are porcelain 600mm x 600mm. Build up is Alpha Hemi Hydrate screed ( totally and utterly dried - and i mean bone dry ). Primed with Ardex P51, Ardex X78 adhesive, Ditra 25, X78 adhesive ( 6mm bed to facilitate levels around the ali windows/doors) then 600mm x 600mm porcelain tiles ( Porcelanosa Urbatek range ). Left for 6 weeks prior to grouting. 2mm grout joint.
Grout - Ardex FS Grout - Innocent Black. 10Kg bags. Full bag mixed. Instructions from ardex were 3litres water per 10kg bag. We did 2.9litres water ready to add final 100ml but felt mix was already a bit too wet. Called Ardex technical, and spoke to their technical guy on the road who didn't know the requirements but said mix should hold on the grout float at 90degrees. We read the data sheet out to him. Clearly mix was too wet for this so added a little more powder from a new 10kg bag, same batch, at his instruction.
Site conditions - as perfect as perfect can be. Seriously. No other trades on site during tiling and grouting. Site meticulously clean. Clear working area. Nice comfortable ambient temperature ( heating not on ). Humidity is what I would describe as normal ( dehumidifiers used at the relevant drying points so the property felt like a normal house and not a damp site ) By this i mean it felt like a nice normal air quality. Some sites feel damp in the air from the wet trades. We have been on tiling duty for a considerably long time and have been the only trade on site. Site was not plastered, it was dry lined and painting was completed back in June. All windows and doors were done a year ago.
Grouting done with a grout float, then floor wiped over once ( once only) with very little water re-introduced to joint at the point that the grout was just biting. We couldn't have left it longer. No washboy used.
You may ask why we were so particular with the process - well, in the summer we had grouted 2 thirds of the ground floor ( last third is on a lower level so seperate and still needs to be grouted). The next day, we had noticed small patches of efflorescence and immediately called Ardex. They advised we had washed too early but not to worry as Lithofin will sort it out, but to leave the grout for a few weeks before attempting the acid clean. We accepeted this advice as we hadn't used FS before. Since then, that floor has been covered with a breathable membrance to keep it clean but allowing it to dry. Keen to avoid any possbility of washing too early or introducing too much water on the first floor, we were anal about both the prep and application and clean up on the first floor. Ground floor batch of grout is a different batch to the first floor due to unavailable quantities at purchase.
Back to our current problem. So, the day after grouting we go back in and find a large percentage of the black grout is white. We called Ardex and spoke to their 'expert' who asked what else had we expected with black grout! Not the answer I was looking for! He advised it was the moisture from their X78 escaping through the 2mm grout joint as that moisture had to escape somewhere and with the Ditra25 below, the grout joint was the only passage and all cement based grouts would suffer the same, especially the dark colours. The grout bag says allow 24hours before grouting - we left it 6 weeks. Ardex told me over the phone their X78 will take a year to dry!
They advised 'Bob' at Lithofin would help.
Bob is the Oracle at Lithofin. I keep stock of the cleaners/residue removers etc., so tried his recommendations to the letter and on chatting to him again the next day, raked out some of the grout to find it white all the way through in places. At best it was lighter than the leftover grout that had solidified in the bucket. Our only choice was to rake it all out - not fun times.
Now Ardex have been awful about this. They are saying it is installer error. This job alone has had 3 pallets of X78, 2 palletts of x77 and they advised they couldn't afford to send someone to site. Then they are saying the site is near the coast edge therefore it is windchill causing the problem - WHAT?? Then they say the site is unfinished - not sure what how many new builds are grouted when the site is completely finsihed - to be clear, internally, all that is left is skirting, door linings and doors, second fix electrical and second fix bathrooms. The grouting couldn't be left any longer in the process. Then they are saying the site is unheated and cold without even setting foot in the place. Their own expert says it takes a year for the adhesive to dry, however it is installer error.
We are now in the situation where part of the house is grouted Innocent Black so we have no choice but to do the rest, but I'm scared to do it incase of a repeat. We raked the 2 rooms out on day 3 and my hands still haven't recovered - it took all day into the evening with no skin left on parts on my hands. Has anyone any helpful suggestions? I have never experienced problems like this before. We now have the underfloor heating back on to hopefully remove any moisture in the adhesive before grouting but i'm not sure this will make a difference. When salts come out through cement based products it doesn't normally happen overnight does it? We have no choice but to use the Innocent Black FS
pre wipe over next morning
Best we could do after going down to max concentration as per Bob's instructions.
