Discuss Supplying and Installing in the Canada Tile Advice area at TilersForums.com.

A

AMtek

How many of you that do full bathroom installs supply as well? suites, tiles the lot? I've had a few people recently who have said that it would be much easier if I could have supplied everything and just had one bill to pay at the end and a deposit for the materials before we start. Its something that I have thought about but to be honest I wouldn't know where to start! I wouldn't even know how to go about doing the design and the quoting, would I take measurements and talk to them about what they want design wise, go away knock up a design and go back again to give them design and prices? what suppliers do people use? what design software?

If anyone who does supply and install could give me some advice it would be much appreciated!
 
Q

Qwerty

I design, supply & install. I use so many different suppliers and a qualified plumber for most of the pipework. I use a plasterer for the skimming and a sparky for the electrics. I know how much it will all cost (only through experience) and I charge the customer for it all but in one hit. Less hassle for the customer and very little stress.
As for the design, I use my poetic licence a lot of the time but usually guided by the customer and their requirements anyway. There is a huge amount of images on the Internet and I usually encourage customers to source a handful of images or compile a mood board so I get a feeling for it all. I'm quite fortunate in that I studied design at university so can knock up a design in my head and then on paper fairly easily.
 
A

AMtek

I design, supply & install. I use so many different suppliers and a qualified plumber for most of the pipework. I use a plasterer for the skimming and a sparky for the electrics. I know how much it will all cost (only through experience) and I charge the customer for it all but in one hit. Less hassle for the customer and very little stress.
As for the design, I use my poetic licence a lot of the time but usually guided by the customer and their requirements anyway. There is a huge amount of images on the Internet and I usually encourage customers to source a handful of images or compile a mood board so I get a feeling for it all. I'm quite fortunate in that I studied design at university so can knock up a design in my head and then on paper fairly easily.

All noted, thanks for the reply. I normally do full bathroom installs myself with a labourer/ apprentice so I normally do the pipework, plastering and tiling myself but get a plumber in for things I'm not 100% about and get a sparky in for electrics. Actually doing the work is no problem at all, I'm sorted on that front its just the designing and supplying that I'm not sure about, as in how to do it efficiently so I'm not going to see every customer 3 times. I thought I could go for 1 visit to measure up, show them some brochures and let them tell me what it is their looking for and give me a budget to work to then go away and use some design software to make a 3d model of the bathroom in a few different layouts with a couple of different suites and tiles etc. then go back and give me some feedback then do the amendments, price it up and put the final plan and the quote in the post for them. Does that sound about right or am I just making a lot of work for myself?

steve187 I'm already dangerously close to the vat threshold anyway because I sub out a lot of kitchen fitting, plastering, rendering and dashing jobs and things have steadily been getting busier so I'm going to be over 67k anyway. As I said I sub a lot of work out so CIS etc. isn't a problem
 
C

Colour Republic

its just the designing and supplying that I'm not sure about, as in how to do it efficiently so I'm not going to see every customer 3 times. I thought I could go for 1 visit to measure up, show them some brochures and let them tell me what it is their looking for and give me a budget to work to then go away and use some design software to make a 3d model of the bathroom in a few different layouts with a couple of different suites and tiles etc. then go back and give me some feedback then do the amendments, price it up and put the final plan and the quote in the post for them. Does that sound about right or am I just making a lot of work for myself?

This all depends on who you are designing and supplying to. If it's cheap budget bathrooms then yes you can make a single visit, chuck some brochures their way and let them guide YOU. There isn't going to be a huge amount of stuff they can choose from so it's nice and easy, you can then send them off round the local tile shops to choose their tiles within budget. You get it all in, make a small mark up and off you go. Remember it has to be a small mark up because they are on a budget.

But if it's for somebody that is willing to spend money and I’m not talking huge money, just somebody that values 1 firm taking responsibility, then it's very different. 3, 4 even 5 visits aren't uncommon. 1st visit for the measure up and a chat about their likes dislikes, 2nd visit you showing a few different designs, 3rd visit firming up on a design and showing samples of tiles you've chosen, the bathroom suite you've spec'd, 4th visit to confirm everything, arrange a start date and take a deposit. Make no mistake it's a lot of work but then you should be charging a premium for all that running around, all that time spent researching and keeping up to date on what hot and what's not. That time has to be paid for but then you have to offer so much more than just turning up and doing a day’s work. In order to make that pay then you have to build your design costs in to your price, that means adding an extra £15 sqm on to the price you pay for tiling, an extra £150 on the plaster. the sparks, the decorator, 25% on materials.... And always keep in mind that at any time they can pull the plug on you after doing 3 days of design work only to go with another firm, so it isn't just building in your time for that bathroom but also the ones you lost.

You also need to think about your suppliers. Clients are willing to pay a premium for a bespoke service but you still need to be competitive. So you need to look at getting you suites either direct from manufacturers or distributors to allow you to build that profit margin in, same to a certain extent with tiles. Don't forget it is you that is doing the designing so it is you that guides them and uses products from the suppliers you deal with. Although that said you better have some bloody good suppliers in all price ranges to suit the project in hand.

So it's no easy game taking the whole thing in house. If it's budget bathrooms, the 3,4,5k's you can expect the client to do some of the running around under your guidance, but if it's 8-15K+ then it's a different ball game, cash rich, time poor type of clients.

If you're not prepared to do the running around and spend a considerable amount of time on the design and pricing then you have 2 options. Stick to budget bathrooms or spend £60k on setting up a bathroom showroom.:thumbsup:
 
A

AMtek

This all depends on who you are designing and supplying to. If it's cheap budget bathrooms then yes you can make a single visit, chuck some brochures their way and let them guide YOU. There isn't going to be a huge amount of stuff they can choose from so it's nice and easy, you can then send them off round the local tile shops to choose their tiles within budget. You get it all in, make a small mark up and off you go. Remember it has to be a small mark up because they are on a budget.

But if it's for somebody that is willing to spend money and I’m not talking huge money, just somebody that values 1 firm taking responsibility, then it's very different. 3, 4 even 5 visits aren't uncommon. 1st visit for the measure up and a chat about their likes dislikes, 2nd visit you showing a few different designs, 3rd visit firming up on a design and showing samples of tiles you've chosen, the bathroom suite you've spec'd, 4th visit to confirm everything, arrange a start date and take a deposit. Make no mistake it's a lot of work but then you should be charging a premium for all that running around, all that time spent researching and keeping up to date on what hot and what's not. That time has to be paid for but then you have to offer so much more than just turning up and doing a day’s work. In order to make that pay then you have to build your design costs in to your price, that means adding an extra £15 sqm on to the price you pay for tiling, an extra £150 on the plaster. the sparks, the decorator, 25% on materials.... And always keep in mind that at any time they can pull the plug on you after doing 3 days of design work only to go with another firm, so it isn't just building in your time for that bathroom but also the ones you lost.

You also need to think about your suppliers. Clients are willing to pay a premium for a bespoke service but you still need to be competitive. So you need to look at getting you suites either direct from manufacturers or distributors to allow you to build that profit margin in, same to a certain extent with tiles. Don't forget it is you that is doing the designing so it is you that guides them and uses products from the suppliers you deal with. Although that said you better have some bloody good suppliers in all price ranges to suit the project in hand.

So it's no easy game taking the whole thing in house. If it's budget bathrooms, the 3,4,5k's you can expect the client to do some of the running around under your guidance, but if it's 8-15K+ then it's a different ball game, cash rich, time poor type of clients.

If you're not prepared to do the running around and spend a considerable amount of time on the design and pricing then you have 2 options. Stick to budget bathrooms or spend £60k on setting up a bathroom showroom.:thumbsup:

Brilliant reply, thanks CR! Budget bathrooms was what i had in mind, there isn't anyone specialising in stone work round my way and i had thought about filling the niche but i think there is a reason people don't do much stone round here, because people won't pay for it!

We've just finished subbing out to a company because they were trying to squeeze us on the prep work, trying to get us to use greenstar and they couldn't organise their way out of a paper bag, last job we did for them we ended up with two different complete suites and tiles with 3 different batch numbers and they were charging us out at £450 a day plus the markup on the materials.
 
A

AMtek

Bloody multi traders spamming the forum,place gone to pot :)

We're like leppers on this forum! haha

Multi-traders get a bad rep but as long as you stick to what you know then i can't see the problem. I do bathrooms and that involves a lot of plumbing but i only use copper with end feed fittings and wastes are always with ABS never push fit. Everything is tested thoroughly before it is covered.

I know plenty of qualified plumbers who almost exclusively use push fit because they can get in and out quicker. Who's work looks better, will last longer and is less prone to weeping and leeks, theirs or mine?

I'll get off my high horse now :sofahide:
 
Last edited by a moderator:

widler

TF
Esteemed
Arms
2,334
1,328
England
It's only 5 or 6 who moan about it,obviously good tilers,but the junk they spout about 'oh I've tiled on wet sand and cement screed ,I've tiled geo's and mosaic and stone and and and I'm the bestest tiler in the world'
Well,I served my time plastering and tiling, I tiled on wet screeds, I've tiled stone and mosaics, no geo's though :(
But I will put money on 90% of tilers on here not doing half the stuff some go on about.
Anyway,apparently we are reverting the forum to schoolboy arguing, when in reality it's that same handful of tilers on here who get there backs up when us multi traders chip in :)
(Personally I call a multi trader a house basher ,who turns in shoddy work day in day out,not folk on here, colour republic,bubble craft and the rest on here turn in great work,as long as its done right and looks well what seems to be the problem? )
When I come back of me hols I will make a thread in the arms,or someone can do it,im a bit illiterate :) and maybe we can all arm wrestle then a group hug and get it out in the arms not the open forum
 

John Benton

TF
Arms
2,203
1,138
Leeds
I agree, my mates just opened a tile shop, i send any customers his way he gives me them at trade and put on a few quid, they still save money, cheaper than tops or giant.
I don't supply owt else though, kitchen or bathrooms, can't be assed with the hassle !

Don't supply bathroom stuff leave that to plumber, but I supply kitchens, can easily make £1-1.5k on a 5k kitchen and then the fitting and tiling on top. Could easily make £3-3.5k for a standard kitchen supplying and fitting in a 3 bed semi.
 
C

Colour Republic

Most free cad software is fairly limited and will give very basic results.

a good 'free' kitchen cad is 'kitchendraw', you get the first 20 hours free and its surprising how many kitchens you can get done in that time as the clock only ticks down as you are designing not whilst the programme is open. It also does bathrooms although I've never spent more than 5 mins playing with its bathroom capabilities.

you could get to grips with google sketchup which is pretty powerful. Again free but step leaning curve.

I now use Articad but then it cost a pretty penny, it started off at about £4k but after years of beating them down I got it for just over £2k. I'm sure most small businesses would have better things to spend £2k on than a bit of software so only really worth it if you can make it pay.
 
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