tiling on plywood

[Daniel]

Hi guys, today I will speak to client about material list needed for her three bathrooms. She wants me to do just the tiling everythings else should be prepare for me. The trouble is that when i was there last time to give her quote I noticed, that her builders boarded up the walls with 12mm play even in the shower area. She wants me to do the tanking at shower area. Question is. Is the Mapei Aquadefence liquid going to stick to playwood? and also would You tile on playwood at all? Well, If she wants it, what can i do? Last question: is here in Uk simillar agency like NSAI, the National Standards Accreditation Agency in Ireland??
Thanks Dan

 

[peteablard]

Can it not be removed and replaced? Personally I wouldn't want to tile it.

 

[Daniel]

will speak to client this afternoon, I don't think she will want to replace it. I thought adding 12mm hardiebacker boards might help, but don't know if she want to spend more money. Would tell client, that removing is the best think to do?

 

[Bubblecraft]

I'm with Pete. Advise her why it shouldn't be tiled & what would be the best option. You really don't want your name linked to it if it fails due to bad prep

 

[peteablard]

I'm sure if you explain the situation why ply isn't a suitable substrate (Not great in any areas but certainly not in bathrooms), for peace of mind it will be worth them having the job done properly

 

[The D]

BRITISH STANDARD 6.2.4.2
Sheets and boards
Sheets and boards include the materials listed in
6.1.2.6
, except
plasterboards; sheets or boards should be adequately braced to
provide a rigid surface, be free from any springiness and surface
undulations and undergo no subsequent distortion during and after
completion of the tiling. Wherever possible, the boards should be
screwed, not nailed, to the supporting framework.
In general, where the sheet or board has a smooth and a rough side,
the latter should be used for tiling. The surface to receive the tiles
should be clean and free from dust and other forms of
contamination.
The use of sheets and boards that are subject to movement from
changes in moisture content, e.g. wood-based materials such as
plywood, chipboard, wood particle boards, etc., should be avoided if
at all possible. If such boards have to be used, they should be
restricted to small areas and tiles should not bridge joints between
boards. All exposed edges and the backs, but not the faces, of such
boards should be sealed with a suitable sealer to prevent distortion
by atmospheric humidity changes. Care should be taken to ensure
such boards are not installed in a condition where their moisture
content is higher than the ambient equilibrium moisture content
once the tiled installation is in use; failure to observe this can lead to
subsequent warping and distortion of the boards with consequent
cracking and delamination of the tiling.

 

[peteablard]

BRITISH STANDARD 6.2.4.2
Sheets and boards
Sheets and boards include the materials listed in
6.1.2.6
, except
plasterboards; sheets or boards should be adequately braced to
provide a rigid surface, be free from any springiness and surface
undulations and undergo no subsequent distortion during and after
completion of the tiling. Wherever possible, the boards should be
screwed, not nailed, to the supporting framework.
In general, where the sheet or board has a smooth and a rough side,
the latter should be used for tiling. The surface to receive the tiles
should be clean and free from dust and other forms of
contamination.
The use of sheets and boards that are subject to movement from
changes in moisture content, e.g. wood-based materials such as
plywood, chipboard, wood particle boards, etc., should be avoided if
at all possible. If such boards have to be used, they should be
restricted to small areas and tiles should not bridge joints between
boards. All exposed edges and the backs, but not the faces, of such
boards should be sealed with a suitable sealer to prevent distortion
by atmospheric humidity changes. Care should be taken to ensure
such boards are not installed in a condition where their moisture
content is higher than the ambient equilibrium moisture content
once the tiled installation is in use; failure to observe this can lead to
subsequent warping and distortion of the boards with consequent
cracking and delamination of the tiling.

In my head that's exactly what I was thinking Deano, I just couldn't quite put it into words like that

 

[Daniel]

Deano you are the man. I will read this for her. I think this will make change her mind. Just hope the builders won't stone me to death.

 

[nybor62]

as all above .

 

[carlthetiler]

i did a job for a local building company and the same thing had happened. told them it is not advised to have ply in a wet area due to expansions, load bearing etc. tanking kit applied, was told to crack on and 2 weeks later the ply had blown and basically it was a floating wetroom! concrete board is a must if you ask me, i refuse to start work if i know i will have to go back to the job or i am not satisfied with the spec.................spend more money getting the job right or save and spend more money getting it right!

 

[Daniel]

What do You think? Ofcourse PLAY will stay and what is worst and I started laugh when they told me, that all walls in three bathrooms 90msq were boarded with 12.5mm white plasterboard. When The designer(man who i work for occasionally) told them to rip it all off and boarded with 12mm marine play. I don't know if I can write his company and his name here, becouse it's his mate who I deal with. Well I strongly advised client not to tile it on play and she said, it's too late now anyway!!! She wants me start on 1 March. I still have some time to decide, but considering I didn't lay any tile since New Year. I have to take it. All I can do is take pictures and let her sign piece of paper that She was advised not to do it. will post pictures of final product. Thanks guys for help.

 

[beanz]

Whilst not being perfect, i'd have thought Marine Ply would be ok, as moisture shouldn't get into it. At the end of the day, you can only advise them. Tell them you'll tile it, but can't guarantee it, as your insurance wouldn't pay out if there's a fail... Might make them think.

 

[John Benton]

We've had quite a lot of posts on here about tiling onto unsuitable substrates. The thing is, this can be put right before a tile has been fixed.

As has been said before, asking the customer to sign a piece of paper and you not to accept any responsibility when you know it is the wrong thing to do counts for nothing.

If you do the job and it fails, it will be your phone ringing, and it will cost you more to fix than you got paid.

So, in my opinion, that's not the way to run your business and I would insist that it be changed to a suitable background or not do the job at all.

 

[Daniel]

Thanks John, you are right about the responsibility.

 

[peteablard]

Print this thread off and show the designer.... If you are going to do it then get the customer to ask the designer to sign a disclaimer. He's the one saying it's suitable when it isn't and he's the one who the customer needs to turn to when it goes wrong. Ultimately though you really shouldn't do it. I can almost see the new thread appearing on here in a couple of months, "My tiler tiled over ply when he shouldn't have done and now the tiles are cracked...."

 

[The D]

It dose not say you can not tile on to ply it just says it should be avoided were ever possible.
If it is unavoidable there are procedures to follow to minimise the risk of a failure.
Was the back and the edges of the ply sealed before it was installed ??
Do the joints of the ply coincide with the tile joints ??
If the above has not been done and your client still insists they do not want the ply removed you could suggest they take the precaution of over boarding this can be done with 6mm Hardie backer or even 4mm Wedi

 

[Daniel]

Thanks Deano, nothing has been done and I didn't check the joints. It could be nice good job forexample she goes for Silestone shower trays 1600x900. Silestone Top above bath and units. Each shower area has niche boxes 600x400x100 with spot lights from Mosaic and about these areas I am worried most. There'll be water standing all the time,becouse they will be half meter from shower heads. Wall hanging units for basins in each bath. I don't want to lose this job. If say something to the designer, he will ask me simple ques. Do you want to do it, or not? Believe me he will find somebody to stick the tiles on silicon. I would have to change costumer's mind, but If I do it, then it will be my last job for this Design Studio, becouse He will look a like someone Who doesn't understand it.

 

[Tilerbhoy]

Firstly it's ply and not play:lol:

secondly I know where your coming from,the amount off plumbers,joiners,builders and even bathroom companies I do work for just laugh when I tell them the substrate isn't ideal for tiling,there attitude is...."iv been doing it like this for 20 years,if you don't want he Job ill get someone else"
I always say well if they come off or grout starts cracking,ill not be back fixing it for free.

there have been times when I point blank refuse, but when there's bills to be payed it makes it hard.

 

[bugs183]

Just returned home after trying to start a shower 40miles from where i live.
Previous tiler tiled straight onto particle board, funnily enough it had leaked, so the wood is shot. New plumber has removed tiles, left adhesive all over it and it flaps about.
Large format 400x250 tiles so this has to be right.
So tomorrow i have to tell him the boards are unusable, so that makes me the bad guy. It could be screwed, tanked with Mapelasic Defense (which i always use) and roll acrylic rendering mesh into this. It would be would, but it's not the point, it's still me having to do make do some elses job again.

 

[beanz]

Firstly it's ply and not play:lol:

secondly I know where your coming from,the amount off plumbers,joiners,builders and even bathroom companies I do work for just laugh when I tell them the substrate isn't ideal for tiling,there attitude is...."iv been doing it like this for 20 years,if you don't want he Job ill get someone else"
I always say well if they come off or grout starts cracking,ill not be back fixing it for free.

there have been times when I point blank refuse, but when there's bills to be payed it makes it hard.

Firstly it's of, not off.. :lol:


Sorry, couldn't resist that lol!



Secondly, you're bang on the money. I have the same understanding with any builder i work for.. We either do it my way, or it gets repaired at their expense.

 

[Plumbing Tiler]

Firstly it's ply and not play:lol:

secondly I know where your coming from,the amount off plumbers,joiners,builders and even bathroom companies I do work for just laugh when I tell them the substrate isn't ideal for tiling,there attitude is...."iv been doing it like this for 20 years,if you don't want he Job ill get someone else"
I always say well if they come off or grout starts cracking,ill not be back fixing it for free.

there have been times when I point blank refuse, but when there's bills to be payed it makes it hard.

Firstly, it's "I've" not iv! :smilewinkgrin:

Sorry, couldn't resist lol.......

It can be very very hard to do the right thing, especially when you are working for someone else and even more so when you need the work, things aren't easy out there and the last thing you want to do is upset people that can be good sources of work, but having said that when it goes wrong it will come back to YOU, the Tiler and not the other guy, and then it will be YOUR reputation as a Tradesman that gets damaged, and that won't help you build your business, so think very carefully about what you do, good luck!

 

[The D]

Firstly it's ply and not play:lol:

secondly I know where your coming from,the amount off plumbers,joiners,builders and even bathroom companies I do work for just laugh when I tell them the substrate isn't ideal for tiling,there attitude is...."iv been doing it like this for 20 years,if you don't want he Job ill get someone else"
I always say well if they come off or grout starts cracking,ill not be back fixing it for free.

there have been times when I point blank refuse, but when there's bills to be payed it makes it hard.

Pot black and all that :lol::lol::lol::lol:

 

[Daniel]

I spoke with Mapei technical advisor today and was assured that ''Ply is ok for walls''. He told me to use Mapegum WPS for tanking, Keraflex Maxi S1 or Keraquick S1 adhesive and colour plus grouts.
I am the bad guy already. Customer called designer about my advice and He called me questioning '' Why did I tell her that''.

 

[beanz]

You told her that because IF it fails, it's going to cost you money!!

Who's paying you, the designer, or the customer? If it's the designer, you should've had the conversation with him. If it's the customer, then it's between you and her..

 

[The D]

I better call the British Standards Institute and let them know that your clients designer is not happy with there guidelines :lol: