Important Changes to Tiling Standards

[Soso]

Sorry to bring this up late, but can we just clarify that this is a wall installation and not floor?

Also is it a wet or dry area?

Hi Paul, It's in the bathroom which includes shower areas.
I know the part 4 7.2 section says that it should be solidly bedded but this builder is trying to use the whole 50% thing to say that the tile doesn't need to be fully covered over the back. It's wall tiles.

 

[Soso]

Other than the builder doing it wrong what are the problems that you actually have

So he is used dot and dab in the shower area also and so we can hear many voids behind the tiles. Also, he has gone so far as to dot and dab the sheet of mosaic ! He said that the grout would go into the gaps in the adhesive behind the tiles and lift them up into place...obviously we knew that at this point it was all a crock and we then started doing more research. But essentially it has left small peaks and troughs in the mosaic as well which he has then found ridiculously hard to grout and thus there are holes in the grout everywhere

 

[acaciaguy]

Can I ask if the wet areas have been suitably prepared... tanked etc prior to tiling.

 

[Tile Shop]

Thank you Julian. I am hoping that the bit about "spread evenly over the back of the tile" and the fact that the entire wall needs to be covered in adhesive should be enough to bat this out. It's a shower area and there should be no voids and the areas should be solidly bedded which i believe part 4 of the standard also states. It's just that the 50% written here is mis-leading surely ?

Not exactly, but it could be clearer that is for dry areas only for small format tiles. Dotting and dabbing is not spreading, so that's his argument already out the window regardless.

Initially, part 1 should be followed, but special considerations should be made in specific areas (which the 2009 standards didn't directly apply to), which is when anything in part 4 should be made a priority, until such time that any updates in part 1 match or exceed what part 4 recommends.

So if he was basing it on the 2009 standards, he should also refer to part 4, 2015, which says:
Section 7 - Wet and damp conditions:
7.2.2 Installations in high humidity areas:
Tiles should be solidly bedded in a water-resistant adhesive

7.2.3 Installations not immersed but subject to occasional wetting (reference made to domestic non-power showers)
a) Tiles should be solidly bedded in a water-resistant adhesive

7.2.4 Installations not immersed but subject to frequent wetting (reference made to wet-rooms, domestic power showers etc)
c) The tiles should be solidly bedded so that voids behind them are eliminated as far as possible

And if he doesn't know how to achieve solid bedding, he should revert back to part 1, 2009 to:
7.2.1.5.3 Notched trowelling and buttering method
The notched trowelling and buttering method combines 7.2.1.5.1 and 7.2.5.2 and should be used for large tiles (3.4 (mathematically refers to 60x30 upwards)) and tiles with ribbed, deep keyed or heavy buttoned back profiles. A thin coating of adhesive buttered over the backs should fill the deep keys before placing the tiles in position on the combed adhesive bed. There should be no significant increase in bed thickness.
Note This method aims to achieve a solid bed but, in practice a small number of voids are inevitable. (this doesn't mean a gaping 50% of no contact).

Also as @acaciaguy says, tanking is also advised under part 4, even before it became part of the 2018 part 1 update:
7.2.3 Note 1
For water sensitive backgrounds e.g. gypsum plaster, additional protection in the waterproof tanking system may be considered
Note 2 The use of impervious grouts and adhesives is no substitute for a tanked installation.

 

[Soso]

Can I ask if the wet areas have been suitably prepared... tanked etc prior to tiling.

No he used 9mm plasterboard on the wall the shower is attached to (i believe it was 9mm). He said he didn't need to tank it because he was using water resistant adhesive and grout and it will never have a failure and he has never had a leak and he doesn't need to tank it. Which i believe is incorrect. It was standards plasterboard btw.

The other wall was tiled before so he tiled over tile on that one

 

[Soso]

Not exactly, but it could be clearer that is for dry areas only for small format tiles. Dotting and dabbing is not spreading, so that's his argument already out the window regardless.

Initially, part 1 should be followed, but special considerations should be made in specific areas (which the 2009 standards didn't directly apply to), which is when anything in part 4 should be made a priority, until such time that any updates in part 1 match or exceed what part 4 recommends.

So if he was basing it on the 2009 standards, he should also refer to part 4, 2015, which says:
Section 7 - Wet and damp conditions:
7.2.2 Installations in high humidity areas:
Tiles should be solidly bedded in a water-resistant adhesive

7.2.3 Installations not immersed but subject to occasional wetting (reference made to domestic non-power showers)
a) Tiles should be solidly bedded in a water-resistant adhesive

7.2.4 Installations not immersed but subject to frequent wetting (reference made to wet-rooms, domestic power showers etc)
c) The tiles should be solidly bedded so that voids behind them are eliminated as far as possible

And if he doesn't know how to achieve solid bedding, he should revert back to part 1, 2009 to:
7.2.1.5.3 Notched trowelling and buttering method
The notched trowelling and buttering method combines 7.2.1.5.1 and 7.2.5.2 and should be used for large tiles (3.4 (mathematically refers to 60x30 upwards)) and tiles with ribbed, deep keyed or heavy buttoned back profiles. A thin coating of adhesive buttered over the backs should fill the deep keys before placing the tiles in position on the combed adhesive bed. There should be no significant increase in bed thickness.
Note This method aims to achieve a solid bed but, in practice a small number of voids are inevitable. (this doesn't mean a gaping 50% of no contact).

Also as @acaciaguy says, tanking is also advised under part 4, even before it became part of the 2018 part 1 update:
7.2.3 Note 1
For water sensitive backgrounds e.g. gypsum plaster, additional protection in the waterproof tanking system may be considered
Note 2 The use of impervious grouts and adhesives is no substitute for a tanked installation.

Paul C, Acaciaguy, oh my gosh i think this is everything I should need to be able to through his argument out. I think he must not realise that there is a part 4 for wet areas.

 

[acaciaguy]

No he used 9mm plasterboard on the wall the shower is attached to (i believe it was 9mm). He said he didn't need to tank it because he was using water resistant adhesive and grout and it will never have a failure and he has never had a leak and he doesn't need to tank it. Which i believe is incorrect. It was standards plasterboard btw.

The other wall was tiled before so he tiled over tile on that one

9mm is a bit thin in my opinion. Unless there is some special reason. However, the thickness issue is overshadowed by dot and dab etc I’m sorry to say the whole install is wrong.

To summarise (and please say if I’m wrong)

You have dot and dabbed tiles on 9mm standard plasterboard in a wet area with no tanking

 

[Soso]

9mm is a bit thin in my opinion. Unless there is some special reason. However, the thickness issue is overshadowed by dot and dab etc I’m sorry to say the whole install is wrong.

To summarise (and please say if I’m wrong)

You have dot and dabbed tiles on 9mm standard plasterboard in a wet area with no tanking

Yeap. That is exactly it. One wall is also tile over tile. AND he has dot and dabbed the mosaic section of the shower area leaving some peaks and troughs in the mosaic and lots and lots of holes because he has tried to push grout into the voids to lift the tiles into position.

 

[acaciaguy]

9mm is a bit thin in my opinion. Unless there is some special reason. However, the thickness issue is overshadowed by dot and dab etc I’m sorry to say the whole install is wrong.

To summarise (and please say if I’m wrong)

You have dot and dabbed tiles on 9mm standard plasterboard in a wet area with no tanking

In the year since you have had the work done. Have there been any visible issues? Are you hoping for a refund / rectified by builder. What’s the situation in terms of what you want as outcome

 

[Soso]

In the year since you have had the work done. Have there been any visible issues? Are you hoping for a refund / rectified by builder. What’s the situation in terms of what you want as outcome

Believe it or not, this person had threatened us with legal action for not giving him the final payment on his contract (he had had £4000 from us before the job had even really started (my mum is 75 and she gave it to him).

Anyway after a month of this happening, he dropped a claim form on us and we are now only just going to a preliminary hearing tomorrow to get the case heard. We have put a counterclaim in because we need to get the whole bathroom re-done really.

In terms of visible issues - we have put plastic sheets up over the mosaic so no issue there. Everywhere else, we don't know as i am the only one of 3 whole occasionally uses the shower now. My parents go next door as they are worried sick of a leak.

 

[acaciaguy]

I’m very sorry to hear this.

What did the whole contract consist of

 

[acaciaguy]

Can you provide photos?

 

[Boggs]

As far as I’m aware it makes no difference if it’s 9.5mm or 12.5mm, they both take the same weight.

 

[acaciaguy]

As far as I’m aware it makes no difference if it’s 9.5mm or 12.5mm, they both take the same weight.

I agree but I use 12.5 for the rigidity

 

[Soso]

I have lots more pictures etc but these a small selection. I have some that show the peaks and troughs better than these