Who is to blame?

[Pebbs]

Firstly apologies to everyone, for a bit of an 'absence' on posting anything on here. I have been locked into main contractor/sub contractor war zones on two fronts which have been raging for 3 months. They are now resolved, not entirely to my satisfaction, but you live and learn in this business.

And what you learn is this:-

Never ever think that you can do any works without a written and signed order clearly showing the agreed price.

Always get your day work sheets signed off showing the hours spend on each extra piece of work.

When a site manager tells you to get on with the works and he will do an order later...He is telling you an out and out bare faced lie. You will be chasing for an order 4 weeks later and he will deny all knowledge of giving you the instruction to proceed.

You will never get any credit for doing a good job, or an outstanding piece of work. Someone somewhere else normally a project manager, will take all the compliments.

Don't ever suggest or propose anything related to design. You are not paid to undertake design responsibility, you do not (for the most part) have friends called Quentin, and Arrabella, nor do you or should you believe the idea of a good night out, is drinking in some poxy members club in Mayfair, and paying 15 quid for a glass of wine.

Put everything in writing and record problems, and generally be a miserable piece of work on site. If they ever think for one moment that you are a genuinely 'decent' person, they will see that as a weakness and then take the p*** later down the line.

When the final day of reckoning arrives, and you being you think that you will get your bill paid, remember this. Surveyors and Site Managers are the human version of leaches. They will try and bleed you dry, and would happily see you lose your house, have your partner divorce you, and have your car repossessed. They will be standing on the pavement watching this as it happens, and laughing their socks of about it.

Trust no one, watch your back, and read the small print, and if and when things go wrong be strong and keep your chin up. You may lose your sanity at times, but at the end of it all Karma is a *****, which makes the biggest bullies fall.

Cheers

Lynn

 

[Gazzer]

Sorry but I dont get this Karma thing.

 

[Dan]

I feel for you Lynn. If even just one person learns from your experience, it'd help cut out these dodgy contractors tactics.

 

[John Benton]

Firstly apologies to everyone, for a bit of an 'absence' on posting anything on here. I have been locked into main contractor/sub contractor war zones on two fronts which have been raging for 3 months. They are now resolved, not entirely to my satisfaction, but you live and learn in this business.

And what you learn is this:-

Never ever think that you can do any works without a written and signed order clearly showing the agreed price.

Always get your day work sheets signed off showing the hours spend on each extra piece of work.

When a site manager tells you to get on with the works and he will do an order later...He is telling you an out and out bare faced lie. You will be chasing for an order 4 weeks later and he will deny all knowledge of giving you the instruction to proceed.

You will never get any credit for doing a good job, or an outstanding piece of work. Someone somewhere else normally a project manager, will take all the compliments.

Don't ever suggest or propose anything related to design. You are not paid to undertake design responsibility, you do not (for the most part) have friends called Quentin, and Arrabella, nor do you or should you believe the idea of a good night out, is drinking in some poxy members club in Mayfair, and paying 15 quid for a glass of wine.

Put everything in writing and record problems, and generally be a miserable piece of work on site. If they ever think for one moment that you are a genuinely 'decent' person, they will see that as a weakness and then take the p*** later down the line.

When the final day of reckoning arrives, and you being you think that you will get your bill paid, remember this. Surveyors and Site Managers are the human version of leaches. They will try and bleed you dry, and would happily see you lose your house, have your partner divorce you, and have your car repossessed. They will be standing on the pavement watching this as it happens, and laughing their socks of about it.

Trust no one, watch your back, and read the small print, and if and when things go wrong be strong and keep your chin up. You may lose your sanity at times, but at the end of it all Karma is a *****, which makes the biggest bullies fall.

Cheers

Lynn

First rule of business:- Never trust anyone!

You're right on every count there Lynn, apart from you missed out Tarquin on your list of names!!!!

I'm lucky I guess, I don't work on sites or for architects etc. I just work in nice peoples houses who pay me when I've done the job.

I know where you're coming from though - in a previous life I worked in a technical sales environment, and I had customers who would hold back payments of say 50k because a £100 piece of equipment hadn't been delivered. I was handsomely rewarded for it because like anything, the more money you get paid, the more responsibility comes with it.

Thing is, the higher up the food chain you seem to move, the more devious customers are at deferring/not paying and they know how to avoid large payments for the smallest things.

I'm so glad I got out and now work for myself. Wouldn't want to employ anyone either. I earn a third of what I used to get along with company car etc. But now I can sleep at night. Happy just getting on with things at my own pace and customers satisfaction.....

There you go.

 

[Pebbs]

I'll tell you what Karma is like.....after all the crap that we have been through for months, legal wrangling, sleepless nights, hair pulling, wall punching and finally the matter resolved, we are more than a little miffed.

This afternoon at 3.30 my phone went..I looked to see who it was and thought......well I cant tell you what I thought because Id prob get banned. It was the surveyor of the godforsaken contract, I was like what the hell now.

The plumbers have messed up and the shower wall in the master bathroom has got to be torn down. So now the main contractor needs the stone broken and new stone ordered, can I get it on order I already have the dims from before, and they need it by next week.

However....my stone prices have just shot up...(in my head that is)....and now there is an increase of 400%...and I want the order and the cash up front before we do anything....

So he said Im being unreasonable....yes I know I am, you should have thought of that before you tried to rip us off. If you don't like the price go some place else, and good luck with the colour matching....ohh and good luck with the Practical Completion on the job.

That is karma.

Lynn

 

[Gazzer]

Well fair play to you Lynn....Karma dont come my way though....not that I can remember anyway.

 

[John Benton]

I'll tell you what Karma is like.....after all the crap that we have been through for months, legal wrangling, sleepless nights, hair pulling, wall punching and finally the matter resolved, we are more than a little miffed.

This afternoon at 3.30 my phone went..I looked to see who it was and thought......well I cant tell you what I thought because Id prob get banned. It was the surveyor of the godforsaken contract, I was like what the hell now.

The plumbers have messed up and the shower wall in the master bathroom has got to be torn down. So now the main contractor needs the stone broken and new stone ordered, can I get it on order I already have the dims from before, and they need it by next week.

However....my stone prices have just shot up...(in my head that is)....and now there is an increase of 400%...and I want the order and the cash up front before we do anything....

So he said Im being unreasonable....yes I know I am, you should have thought of that before you tried to rip us off. If you don't like the price go some place else, and good luck with the colour matching....ohh and good luck with the Practical Completion on the job.

That is karma.

Lynn

Karma occurs once the cheques have cleared Lynn - and not until!!!

You've done the right thing there, if they mess you about, you will find that it comes back to bite their sorry asses!!!

 

[Perry]

I had that with kier Lynn two years to get my money rang up a little while later wanted me to tile Windsor Castle after the fire told them to bog off and get some other mug you are knockers and dont pay all the big boys are crooks imo good on you

 

[Dan]

I tell you what. I read a lot of these types of things: James Caan | Business Secrets App

Most I get nothing from but worth listening to just in case.

I have James Kahn's Secrets podcasts app thing.

In one of them he goes on about how he threatens to sue people who don't pay him - via his "backend" (so he gets his accounts dept to start proceedings) while his sales guys (at the "front end") are still setting up deals with them.

One thing I will say I learnt from that is to make sure I keep my finance issues and non-payers contacts different to my contacts who I deal with when selling to them. So I speak to a guy in accounts and send an email threatening legal action - while I deal with the sales bloke still for setting up more deals with them.

While it sounds weird to do that - business is business and generally the accounts will react to a legal letter, while the sales guys will have nothing to do with the payments and whatnot.

So I'd say if that bloke needs something doing, make sure your contracts are solid and do it, and if the firm doesn't pay again, sue them via their head office and keep that sales guy out of the loop.

It's helped me with a recent huge firm who p1ssed me about with a payment for 6 months with one excuse or the other. I ended up going to their head accounts bloke and threatened (professionally mind) legal action and they'd then need to cover court costs too. And it got paid. Meanwhile the guys I spoke to originally were still giving me the run-around with excuses.

 

[bugs183]

Nasty business this Pebbs, it's hard enough doing the job without being ripped off in the end.
Hang in there (a cliche i know).

 

[Pebbs]

My friend is on another contract for the same main contractor that we had a battle with, his work is all stone restoration. He rang me this afternoon, because now he's worried as the chippies have got the same problems that I had. I said, I'll tell you what they will do, they will pay your invoices for the first few months, and then when you two invoices away from your final account, they will start knocking you, and deducting money for any excuse.

I just think we are in a no win situation sometimes with these big contractors, and to be in a good position, you need a legal department.

Lynn

 

[bugs183]

Food for thought this link, as i may have some large commercial work coming my way.
If they are knocking the last two invoices those are the ones where you actually see some profit off the job
Are these the same you had the issues with over the Ditra??

 

[Colour Republic]

A bloody good day at the office it seems!

 

[Pebbs]

Bugs, yes this is the same main contractor I had issues on the ditra matting charge, the fact that every wet area was tanked and they wanted in the ditra matting rate of £8.00m2!!! I also had issues on the following...heres some big fat lovely main contractor gems....

Tanking ..... they didn't want to pay.
Gylvon Screeding to be primed....they didn't want to pay.
Substrate levels 20mm to low....they didn't want to pay.
4nr treads smashed by the sparkies..who held their hands up to it....the main contractor said we should have protected it, it was but the sparkies needed to take the protection of to put the lcds under the treads. Main contractor didn't want to pay for the replacements.
Curved cutting didn't want to pay.
Sealing of Stone they didn't want to pay.
In fact I can honestly say they didn't want to pay for anything in the job.

What made my blood boil is every single item was covered by an instruction...which you think would cover each item. Well no legally they can tell you to proceed but they don't have to accept your price. The only way they have to legally pay is if they write we accept your cost quotation of £***.00 proceed with the works.

Bugs check your contract, check the clauses, keep a site diary, and never ever ever do any extra work without a written instruction stating they have accepted your price for the additional extra works out side of that contract.

Bang those first invoices out as quick as you can, the last two are the stingers, which can wipe out the profit.

Lynn

 

[bugs183]

Very very naughty people, especially as you thought you'd had it all sown up
I'll take note of what you say and cross every t from now on.
It wrong that you have to be so careful these days.

 

[Spud]

hi Lynn next time you are instructed to do extras ask for a purchase order ,this is legally binding and they cant wriggle out of paying it

 

[Pebbs]

I swear to God, I will never take another instruction with out a purchase order attached to it again. We put our trust in people to often to do the right thing, to many times. The only thing we can trust the majority of main contractors to do these days is to effectively squash the life out of their sub contractors. In the last 12 months I have seen some very reputable and long established tiling and stone firms go down the pan, because they hit a bad contract, and were in the end bought to their knees.

Eight months ago I lost a big contract to a competitor, I don't like losing contracts, and I didn't like losing this one, but in fairness the competition are a good firm, so there were no hard feelings. Yesterday my supplier rang me up, to tell me that the other firm who got the job, had just been slaughtered by the main contractor, because the client didn't like the colour of the marble in the bathrooms. This is after they had submitted the samples in, got the sample area done and approved and were instructed to proceed. 14 bathrooms into the job, they have now been rejected. All the marble for the remaining bathrooms has been cut and is ready. How the hell is a company going to survive something of this nature, I just don't know. Some may say well its one less company to compete with, but that's not the point, instances like this are too common these days.

My Contracts Director summed it up, he said 'fighting with these main contractors is like being in a boxing ring with your hands tied behind your back you just get battered all the time'.

Im off to watch Rocky 2 now, to see if I can pick up any tips :fuk2:

Lynn

 

[Ajax123]

I feel for you Lynn. If even just one person learns from your experience, it'd help cut out these dodgy contractors tactics.

Nt really dodgy contractors.... Just contractors in general really...