Important Changes to Tiling Standards

[Tile Shop]

Coefficient of Linear thermal expansion?

I remember dealing with that for sheet lead. It’s fascinating stuff, kind of 😀

Thats the one. We probably have different definitions of fascinating 🙂

Easy when you know the equation but still need to know the CoLTE of a particular material. Basic ones I work off are as follows. But as you can imagine, its not something I need to use very often:
Porcelain 4
Ceramic 6
Limestone 8
Marble upto 14
Granite 8.5

Plaster 17
Concrete 14
Wood variations 30 average

 

[Waluigi]

It was a half tongue in cheek comment but actually I do find it interesting 🙂

 

[Old Mod]

All true, but if standards are looking at expansion rates over a temperature range of zero degrees to
30 degrees C then is it possible they are justified in their findings?
(It’s late and have no intention of working the equation now)
The problem there is that it’s not a credible theory, typically materials that we install are already acclimatised, and if not, they should be, so if the residence is occupied, the tiles will not start at a temperature of zero degrees, they’ll probably already be 15 degrees and over.
This would be more in line with amounts of expansion mentioned above, and not from where standards may be taking their calculations from.
Just a thought.
It also happens to be the biggest and easiest get out clause in the trade.

 

[Tile Shop]

The above examples i used were starting at 20 and BS would probably account for extra tolerance to be safe. The expansion is based on the difference in temp only which is closer to reality rather a "but what if" extreme. So for julians instance of ufh, going to 34, means the figure is calculated on the 14 degrees difference. If it started at zero and went up to 34, the expansion would be far greater........... Will work that one out in the morning 🙂 ...zzzZZZ

 

[Tile Shop]

I say far greater, but even on 1 metre slab we are still only talking an expansion of 0.136mm

 

[Soso]

Hello, we are currently in dispute with a builder over a poor bathroom installation which includes poor tiling and also poor fitting of goods.

The builder has all of a sudden asked that the British Institute of Kitchens Bedrooms and Bathrooms do an inspection. We were thinking the Tile association would be better but they cost a lot (750 plus VAT).

Does anyone have experience or dealings with BIKBBI and if so does anyone know if the standard of their inspections would conform to British standards and Tile association standards for tiling ?

Does anyone know anyone else or where else we could get an inspection done. The builder used dot and dab also but i understand that most inspections would not remove tiles off the walls ?

 

[Dumbo]

Why dont you contact both associations and ask them about their inspections and what they cover. If it wasn't in your builders terms I believe they can't insist who does the inspection. The tta probably won't cover the instalation of goods but to be honest the tiling is probably going to be the most expensive part to correct .

 

[Waluigi]

Just had a quick look and it looks like a genuine organisation. I also took a look at installers registered in my area and how to apply to become a member. An annual fee is required. If the company you have been dealing with is a member of BIKBBI (rolls off the tongue that acronym doesn’t it?! 😉 ) then I’d be a little worried there is a conflict of interest there.

 

[Soso]

Why dont you contact both associations and ask them about their inspections and what they cover. If it wasn't in your builders terms I believe they can't insist who does the inspection. The tta probably won't cover the instalation of goods but to be honest the tiling is probably going to be the most expensive part to correct .

Thanks jcrtiling. I agree the tiling will definitely be the most expensive as it will require removal and re-installation of goods as a consequence of needing to be re-tiled anyway. The trouble is that small claims court only covers up to £750 but the tile association with VAT included is £900 🙁

The builder doesn't have anything in his terms so i think we would have to tell them which inspection we would agree to. I've just contacted the BIKBBI and they said they don't know if their inspectors use Tile association of BSI standards when doing their inspection. I asked about dot and dab and she hadn't even heard of it although i expect she is in admin rather than an inspector herself !

Just concerned their inspectors might think dot and dab is acceptable or wouldn't know the current industry standards

 

[Soso]

Just had a quick look and it looks like a genuine organisation. I also took a look at installers registered in my area and how to apply to become a member. An annual fee is required. If the company you have been dealing with is a member of BIKBBI (rolls of the tongue that acronym doesn’t it?! 😉 ) then I’d be a little worried there is a conflict of interest there.

Yes - agree. We are a little worried that maybe the builder knows someone there or knows the local inspector or something. This builder seems to be quite well known in the local area (not in a good way). Just also concerned that we want someone who can genuinely inspect tile issues thoroughly. I don't think the builder is a member but i do think maybe he has contacts either there or on the ground.

 

[Old Mod]

Found this quite interesting, so with some help from @Paul C. this is what is contained within British Standards.

BS5385 part 1

"7.1.2 Bedding Materials
........ blah blah blah
Tiles should not be fixed using the dot and dab technique"

"7.2.1.6 Tile Joints
........ blah blah blah
Tiles should not be fixed using the dot and dab technique"
(why they put it again under tile joint, I have no idea)

Other than that it only mentions the methods to achieve as full contact as possible. no specifics.

This should weight the argument on your side.

 

[Concrete guy]

Small claims court (moneyclaim online) deals with disputes up to £10,000 now as far as I'm aware.

 

[LM]

Grout performance is critical to this debate.

 

[Ash205]

Morning all,
Have a question for the professionals out there
Just had my bathroom refurbished and everything was taken back down to brick etc , however whilst inspecting the work some of the tiling just looks really badly done
Now the question is am I being to picky or is this a bad job ? According to the company owners who did the job the work is within industry standards ?!

 

[Time's Ran Out]

Not acceptable!
Could hang my coat on some of those.
Get them back - problem is if they’ve left the aesthetics like that what’s behind the view?

 

[Dumbo]

Call their bluff ask them for a copy of the industry standards they are referring to because that lippage clearly isn't with British standards which is 1mm between tiles with grout joints of 3mm or less .

 

[Dumbo]

Also should be a soft joint at the ceiling either caulk or Silicon . Are the vertical corners grouted or siliconed .

 

[Waluigi]

Back to brick then I’d hazard a guess that a board was dot and dabbed on? This is the perfect surface to get flat and Plumb so the tiling should be absolutely spot on which this is far from.

Is there any reason the whole bathroom was finished before this poor tiling was picked up on?

Shame it wasn’t noted sooner as it would’ve been easier to put a halt to the tiling works so a professional could be brought in.

 

[Andy Rhodes]

Good heavens & i'm being polite, if that's what they pass off as acceptable & within BS their on crack get em back to rectify their mistakes if take em to court don't call their buff go in hard & dont take no for answer

 

[Tile Shop]

According to the company owners who did the job the work is within industry standards ?!

No way is it. The lipping between tiles should be no more than 1mm. It looks like you have at least 2mm there in some places. Totally unacceptable. The standards they should be working to are BS5385 Part 1. Not some fictional standards they have plucked out of a magical unicorns bum:

"7.1.9.2 Across joints
There should be no appreciable difference in level across joints (commonly known as "lipping") and the maximum deviation between tile surfaces either side of the joint, including movement joints, should be as follows.
a) Joints less than 6 mm wide, 1 mm.
b) Joints 6 mm or more wide, 2mm."

You have to get them back and give them the opportunity to correct their work. If they refuse, well, we'll have to cross that bridge if/when it comes to it.

 

[Andy Rhodes]

if they refuse it's a no brainer,there are no bridges to cross Paul it all there in the pictures bang to right & the worsed part about they've prepared the walls apparently would hate to see the work if they hadn't touched them,legal action all the way

 

[Spare Tool]

Not acceptable by a long way, and for those that claim leveling clips have no place in tiling........!!!

 

[One Day]

..and just to point out that it might actually be WITHIN BS5385 tolerances.
1mm lippage is a crazy amount on a rectified edge and BS5385 should be revised to 0.1mm in my opinion.

I reckon if you actually measure the lips in the photos they are under 1mm (just)

No excuse for such a shocking job, but they may use it as an excuse.

 

[Andy Rhodes]

Shouldn't have to use tiling clips on those tiles there only 600 x 300 by the looks of them in the pictures, 600 x 300 are the new 6 x 6 it's just very poor quality of work demonstrated by a fixer who excuse, it's been done to BS standards I think this person's definition of BS is standing for Bull rubbish

 

[Andy Rhodes]

sorry only just seen Impish comments, maybe & again I'm going to say it get an independent report carried out

 

[Spare Tool]

Shouldn't have to use tiling clips on those tiles there only 600 x 300 by the looks of them in the pictures, 600 x 300 are the new 6 x 6 it's just very poor quality of work demonstrated by a fixer who excuse, it's been done to BS standards I think this person's definition of BS is standing for Bull rubbish

No not essential to use clips but would have made for a dam sight better job with them...

 

[One Day]

How someone can grout that and walk away is beyond me.
Have they no shame?!

 

[Dumbo]

I will use clips on rectified tiles all day long as it help protect the edges during installation

 

[Ash205]

Thank you everyone for your comments,
Just to answer a couple of questions
We had the whole job project managed by the bathroom company whilst We went away on holiday so we didn’t see the issues with the tiling until we came back, but they were raised straight away on our return
However because of a discontinued vanity unit and a measuring problem along with a chipped cistern we have had to wait the last 6/7 weeks for the items to become available to able to finish the job and presumed everything would be put right all in one go
The downside is they came this week and fitted everything that was missing, and gave the speech about the tiles again.
Having read the comments my plan now is to give them another couple of weeks to sort the tiles and if I get no joy bring somebody in to do the tiles correctly using their fitting fee (everything else was paid for upfront except fitting)

Again thanks for your comments guys most appreciated

 

[Dumbo]

That action might get you into trouble . Have you created a paper trail . You need to put in writing what you are not happy with and ask them to correct it . They need to given the chance to correct it . I know you complained , but you have to ask them to put it right . You should speak to a solicitor or local citizens advice bureau on how to deal with this .

 

[Andy Rhodes]

The statement made by jcr is correct e-mail the company with everything your not happy with & what you want the outcome to be .Also if your able to attach read & receive to the e-mail do so hope this helps & good luck