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Discuss Floating Chipboard Floor over Hetta wet ufh pipes (like polypipe) in the Australia Tiling Forum area at TilersForums.com.

aflemi

TF
Arms
1
513
This is about a Victorian conversion property I am buying. I agreed purchase on condition that I fitted out 2 bathrooms.
Builder has constructed the following floor structure:
"The floor make up is as follows.
22mm chipboard glued joints and onto the Ecojoist.

6mm Accusti rubber mat laid over the chipboard c/w foam edging strip

15mm plasterboard plank

25mm polystyrene heat tray

18mm glued joint chipboard."

So apart from the first 22mm chipboard layer glued onto the Ecojoist, nothing is fixed, top layer is interlocking glued chipboard.
UFH manufacturer is Hetta (Swedish) who appear to distribute exclusively through www.ufhtradedirect.co.uk/.
Their brochure is View attachment HETTA UFH BROCHURE.pdf
Ufhtrade direct instruct the following

"Routed floors panel instruction:Simply lay the panels onto your existing screed/floorboards, install the pipe and cover with an interlocking plywood or chipboard floor. Floor covering-Tiles:When tiling, a flexible adhesive must be used to prevent cracking, Tiles should not be laid directly on top of the routed panels."
My builder also advised this:
"Hi Alasdair
The name of the adhesive we have been recommended to use via the manufacturer re the floating floor is Bal single part fast flex. Having used Detra(sic) matting in the past we have found that this does not allow for lateral movement and therefore the tiles crack. This rubberised adhesive should perform far better."
Apart from the comments about builders not knowing their **** from their elbow, I really need some informed advice about how to handle this. I have personally never even tiled directly onto chipboard, never mind over UFH, never mind floating. This is my own property so I cant walk away from it, I really need to have tiled bathroom floors which should be a minimum requirement in my view so I need to solve this.
As an aside, there are 5 other apartments in this development which is covered by the developers equivalent of NHBC, if the builder tiles all other bathrooms in this manner and they fail, he'll have an expensive job to correct.
 
Well ,

"Having used Detra(sic) matting in the past we have found that this does not allow for lateral movement and therefore the tiles crack."


That is incorrect , both Ditra & F/flex allow for lateral movement ( 4mm is my understanding ) , what they don't allow for is vertical movement.


As for tiling it , personally I woulnd't touch it with a bargepole
:smilewinkgrin:

Have you looked at the ecojoists? seems the installation of those is pretty key in relation to any potential deflection.
Just my view though , old school I'm afraid , if it aint screwed then its no way dude.

Diggy :0)




 

Ajax123

TF
Esteemed
Arms
931
1,213
Lincolnshire
Why such a complicated floor make up. I agree with Diggy that as it stands I wouldn't touch it with a 50 foot barge pole.

Why not place a screed over the chipboard and tile that instead. provided the joists are able to take the weight you could pin the underfloor heating to the chipboard through a polythene sheet. use anhydrite screed to a depth of 35mm (thereabout) and the tile onto that.

If you want some more detail on how you might do this let me know.
 

aflemi

TF
Arms
1
513
Must be another property below. That's for fire and sound.

Yes, its for apartments building regs. In theory I could remove top chipboard layer, replace with 18mm ply marking location of pipes and screwing down to bottom chipboard layer with hundreds of screws. One room is 4x3.3m and plan bath at one end so with weight difference full/empty of +350kg it needs a good base that wont flex every time bath filled/emptied. Have called Mapei and they were sceptical on phone but are reverting by email. Anyone have experience of polypipe install covered with floating layer?
 

Chalker

TF
Arms
628
1,058
Tadcaster
Yes, its for apartments building regs. In theory I could remove top chipboard layer, replace with 18mm ply marking location of pipes and screwing down to bottom chipboard layer with hundreds of screws. One room is 4x3.3m and plan bath at one end so with weight difference full/empty of +350kg it needs a good base that wont flex every time bath filled/emptied. Have called Mapei and they were sceptical on phone but are reverting by email. Anyone have experience of polypipe install covered with floating layer?
yes, but the underfloor panels were covered with fermacell.
 

Ajax123

TF
Esteemed
Arms
931
1,213
Lincolnshire
have a look at this. It is an acoustic floor for timber frame and is designed to exceed part E for both impact and airborne ST. I hate it when designers over complicate things. It provides a solid floor and would be heaps cheaper to install than fermecell boards.

we just finished supplying the latest of these which is a ten thousand square meter plus student accommodation in York.

http://www.gypsol.co.uk/13_TimBRE_Data_Sheet.pdf

Sales pitch over. :) sorry admins :)
 

Chalker

TF
Arms
628
1,058
Tadcaster
have a look at this. It is an acoustic floor for timber frame and is designed to exceed part E for both impact and airborne ST. I hate it when designers over complicate things. It provides a solid floor and would be heaps cheaper to install than fermecell boards.

we just finished supplying the latest of these which is a ten thousand square meter plus student accommodation in York.

http://www.gypsol.co.uk/13_TimBRE_Data_Sheet.pdf

Sales pitch over. :) sorry admins :)
Looks like a great solution for properties like this.
But I think the op mentioned that the underfloor heating was already fitted.
 

aflemi

TF
Arms
1
513
Tx input guys. Mapei came back, wouldn't guarantee at all but said best method was their ditra equivalent and keraquick with latex+. Called Bal and the guy nearly had a heart attack, wouldn't tile it. Chalker, spoke to these guys
http://www.jupiterunderfloorheating.com/fermacell.php
who were very helpful. They said the fermacell boards over their heat boards would be ok for tiles up to 400sq but over that size they recommend their Screed Replacement Tiles which are on their website, 20mm deep, (its on their website) which are cemented together and they will GUARANTEE NO FAILURE when their 30mm heat boards are used.(I did some digging and their heat boards have kPa value of 240 compared to Hetta's 100 so basically are 2.4 times more dense and rigid. I can install these boards in the bigger room, get the builders to feed the cable through them instead of the spongy ones and use the Screed Replacement Tiles which gives me much more comfort.
Not sure what to do with other room, ufh and chipboard is already done. Anyone know of a very good engineered wood (ish) product? May still ditra and tile as only guest bathroom, no bath and everything wall mounted....
The Jupiter heating guys really know their stuff, in stark contrast to Hetta who said this today

[FONT=&quot]When the pipe is in the panel it also adds a lot of strength, especially as the pipe is spaced at 150mm centres[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]As long as flexible adhesive is used with tiles, and a the plywood has a 10mm ga left around the perimeter to allow for any slight expansion etc[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]There shouldn’t be any issues at all[/FONT]
 
Yes, its for apartments building regs. In theory I could remove top chipboard layer, replace with 18mm ply marking location of pipes and screwing down to bottom chipboard layer with hundreds of screws. One room is 4x3.3m and plan bath at one end so with weight difference full/empty of +350kg it needs a good base that wont flex every time bath filled/emptied. Have called Mapei and they were sceptical on phone but are reverting by email. Anyone have experience of polypipe install covered with floating layer?
Any ply or similar wood is not acceptable for tile installation under british standards, should be overlayed with suitable tile backer board.
 

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