Acrylic primer didn't bond to Larsen Tile Adhesive

[Tiler87]

I had an issue recently that I've never seen before and any help or advice would be greatly appreciated. I used a Larsen acrylic primer on gyspum walls as instructed on product (walls had been skimmed 8+ weeks previous and moisture tested prior to sealing and tiling). 18 months later and it seems the sealer has not bonded to the wall adhesive. Wall was coated with a 12mm trowel and a standard set flexible adhesive used, the tiles are 900mm by 150mm thin porcelain and within weight limit of plaster. Tiles have now come away from the wall with 100% of adhesive on the tiles and 0% left on the wall with sealer still appearing tacky on the walls. Walls are tiled 1.2m high around the room and the issue is only where sealer was applied to gypsum walls,other walls are scratch coated and solid as should be expected. Usually removal of tiles like these should take plaster and all with it, is this is a sealer failure or am I missing something? Apologies for the long post but I'm in the trade a long time and never encountered this.
Thanks

 

[Dave]

Did you dilute the primer ..? As some primers need diluting and not applied neat . Or they form a skin and can fail.

 

[Tiler87]

Did you dilute the primer ..? As some primers need diluting and not applied neat . Or they form a skin and can fail.

Hi Dave, Primer was diluted 1:1 with water first coat and applied neat on 2nd coat as instructed on the drum.

 

[Dave]

Ok , just had a quick read of said primer instructions and it does state as you say but more coasts can be applied if required. Do you have any white residue on tile backs or walls , as in there has been a reaction with the adhesive and the gypsum ?

 

[Tiler87]

Ok , just had a quick read of said primer instructions and it does state as you say but more coasts can be applied if required. Do you have any white residue on tile backs or walls , as in there has been a reaction with the adhesive and the gypsum ?

No residue on either, adhesive stuck to the tile and its as if the sealer broke the bond between adhesive and wall the opposite of what it is supposed to do 🙈 adhesion to tile was excellent, the tile in question is discontinued so I used a concrete grinding disc to remove the adhesive to re-use them. Its left me completely stumped

 

[Dave]

No residue on either, adhesive stuck to the tile and its as if the sealer broke the bond between adhesive and wall the opposite of what it is supposed to do 🙈 adhesion to tile was excellent, the tile in question is discontinued so I used a concrete grinding disc to remove the adhesive to re-use them. Its left me completely stumped

Was the primer fully dry before tiling as tiling to early could wet the primer and weaken the bond.

No residue on either, adhesive stuck to the tile and its as if the sealer broke the bond between adhesive and wall the opposite of what it is supposed to do 🙈 adhesion to tile was excellent, the tile in question is discontinued so I used a concrete grinding disc to remove the adhesive to re-use them. Its left me completely stum

 

[Dave]

Also the plaster shouldn’t be over polished when it was skimmed.. helps the primer to soak in..

 

[Tiler87]

Also the plaster shouldn’t be over polished when it was skimmed.. helps the primer to soak in..

Plaster wasn't over polished as when 1:1 coat was applied it darkened the skim where it was soaking in (which I understood to mean it was bonding into the ppurs) its recommended that the 2nd coat applied should be allowed to dry and become tacky before tiling

 

[Dave]

Plaster wasn't over polished as when 1:1 coat was applied it darkened the skim where it was soaking in (which I understood to mean it was bonding into the ppurs) its recommended that the 2nd coat applied should be allowed to dry and become tacky before tiling

Might be best to ring technical , it’s not a primer i use and not a dilution ratio i use.. just trying to see if it was something simple..

 

[Tiler87]

I Appreciate your reply Dave thank you. I had a local rep out to look at it but I know already they'll try to weasel out of it any way possible 🤷🏻‍♂

 

[Kevbos]

I Appreciate your reply Dave thank you. I had a local rep out to look at it but I know already they'll try to weasel out of it any way possible 🤷🏻‍♂

To me it looks like the primer has stuck to the adhesive very well !because glued side of tiles is perfectly smooth !! The problem is when priming was done ! If you run hands down wall do they collect a fine dust !?? On very polished plaster a fine dust is left ! And I wipe over this with a damp sponge to make sure the wall is dust free !! Because guarantee that's what primer company going to say

 

[Tiler87]

To me it looks like the primer has stuck to the adhesive very well !because glued side of tiles is perfectly smooth !! The problem is when priming was done ! If you run hands down wall do they collect a fine dust !?? On very polished plaster a fine dust is left ! And I wipe over this with a damp sponge to make sure the wall is dust free !! Because guarantee that's what primer company going to say

I'd say roughly 20% of the primer stayed on the tile when removed the rest was on the wall with both sides still tacky. My issue is the lack of bond, the skim coat is maximum 3mm thick so when removing a tile it should theoretically take skim and all. Walls were prepared before sealer was applied and when 1:1 mixture was painted on the skim its darkened as to suggest it had penetrated the skim and bonded. Rep came up with 3 excuses in less than 5 minutes
1. Weight of the tile was too much for the sealer/plaster
2. Coverage on tile (ridges not fully collapsed)
3. Expansion-he said larsen require a minimum of every 5 meters for am expansion joint.
So I've a feeling I'll get nowhere with then, I think the best solution is to stop using Larsen products 🤷🏻‍♂

 

[Dave]

I'd say roughly 20% of the primer stayed on the tile when removed the rest was on the wall with both sides still tacky. My issue is the lack of bond, the skim coat is maximum 3mm thick so when removing a tile it should theoretically take skim and all. Walls were prepared before sealer was applied and when 1:1 mixture was painted on the skim its darkened as to suggest it had penetrated the skim and bonded. Rep came up with 3 excuses in less than 5 minutes
1. Weight of the tile was too much for the sealer/plaster
2. Coverage on tile (ridges not fully collapsed)
3. Expansion-he said larsen require a minimum of every 5 meters for am expansion joint.
So I've a feeling I'll get nowhere with then, I think the best solution is to stop using Larsen products 🤷🏻‍♂

I personally don’t agree with the tile on tacky primer recommendation. The primer is to prevent the reaction between the cement based adhesive and the gypsum. So in my experience that needs to be cured. Not tacky. I would change products imho.

 

[Tiler87]

I personally don’t agree with the tile on tacky primer recommendation. The primer is to prevent the reaction between the cement based adhesive and the gypsum. So in my experience that needs to be cured. Not tacky. I would change products imho.

We're very limited in my area for suppliers, tile master has become available at a new local tile shop and I've been very impressed with the adhesive have you any experience with that brand?

 

[Dave]

We're very limited in my area for suppliers, tile master has become available at a new local tile shop and I've been very impressed with the adhesive have you any experience with that brand?

Yes , very good gear. 👍.

 

[bsc ceramics]

Just a thought but the plasterer didnt pva it did he?

 

[Tiler87]

Just a thought but the plasterer didnt pva it did he?

no pva used, the larsen rep is going to email me his report tomorrow. I'm sure he'll take full responsibility for his products failure and reimburse me for repairs needed 🤪

 

[bsc ceramics]

Im sure he will. in other news pigs have started to fly...

 

[Kevbos]

I'd say roughly 20% of the primer stayed on the tile when removed the rest was on the wall with both sides still tacky. My issue is the lack of bond, the skim coat is maximum 3mm thick so when removing a tile it should theoretically take skim and all. Walls were prepared before sealer was applied and when 1:1 mixture was painted on the skim its darkened as to suggest it had penetrated the skim and bonded. Rep came up with 3 excuses in less than 5 minutes
1. Weight of the tile was too much for the sealer/plaster
2. Coverage on tile (ridges not fully collapsed)
3. Expansion-he said larsen require a minimum of every 5 meters for am expansion joint.
So I've a feeling I'll get nowhere with then, I think the best solution is to stop using Larsen products 🤷🏻‍♂

If it is still tacky then something has gone wrong somewhere !but not to say anything about certain adhesives !but larsen is one I will never use ! Along with ultra and a few others !! I have used mapei products years now and their adhesives are if not the best certainly amongst the best !keraquik and keraflex !! And just use sbr to prime walls and floors etc it is so strong

 

[Tiler87]

If it is still tacky then something has gone wrong somewhere !but not to say anything about certain adhesives !but larsen is one I will never use ! Along with ultra and a few others !! I have used mapei products years now and their adhesives are if not the best certainly amongst the best !keraquik and keraflex !! And just use sbr to prime walls and floors etc it is so strong

I think its the last time I'll be using them, I've informed local tile shops not to send any of their products out to jobs I'm on. If they can't guarantee the product I can't guarantee my work and that is not acceptable 🤷🏻‍♂

 

[Kevbos]

I think its the last time I'll be using them, I've informed local tile shops not to send any of their products out to jobs I'm on. If they can't guarantee the product I can't guarantee my work and that is not acceptable

 

[Tile Marble Granite]

All Primer, SBR is not ok with all surfaces, for ex. some months ago I have done a job where the builders leveled up the floor with some self leveling compound. Cleaned up the surface, tried it 3 days in a row, on dry and damp surface, applied several coats of Bal primer diluted as recommended by the manufacturer, always let it cure over night, the very next day in some areas where the self leveling compound was more like gypsym dusty kind of looking, the darn primer piled off. So, I would say, never follow the manufacturer advice, do whatever you think is necessary for that particular job. I ended up recleaning the area, damp it with water, mixed the adhesive with SBR and applied the subfloor on top. Achieved a very good bonding. I do believe in the new technology, it just does not always work out as it supposed to. You always have to be a step above and use your common sense.
Some areas of the floor had to be grinded off, the primer would not pill off in those areas. See last picture where the primer penetrated the compound and would not pill off.

 

[Tiler87]

All Primer, SBR is not ok with all surfaces, for ex. some months ago I have done a job where the builders leveled up the floor with some self leveling compound. Cleaned up the surface, tried it 3 days in a row, on dry and damp surface, applied several coats of Bal primer diluted as recommended by the manufacturer, always let it cure over night, the very next day in some areas where the self leveling compound was more like gypsym dusty kind of looking, the darn primer piled off. So, I would say, never follow the manufacturer advice, do whatever you think is necessary for that particular job. I ended up recleaning the area, damp it with water, mixed the adhesive with SBR and applied the subfloor on top. Achieved a very good bonding. I do believe in the new technology, it just does not always work out as it supposed to. You always have to be a step above and use your common sense.
Some areas of the floor had to be grinded off, the primer would not pill off in those areas. See last picture where the primer penetrated the compound and would not pill off.

I understand what you are trying to say but if you are using a product and the manufacturer advises the best way to use it, my thinking was deviation from the recommended application would void any warranty from the company? In this case it didn't matter as the rep was true to form and weaseled out by taking no responsibility. After a conversation over text with him I quickly realised he'd have difficulty distinguishing between arse and elbow.

 

[Trigger]

Is it a ground floor external wall? Cavity wall or solid wall?

Just wondering if the wall could be damp for the primer to remain tacky. Gypsum plasters shouldn't really be used on solid walls as they act like a sponge and absorb moisture.

 

[Lou]

I had an issue recently that I've never seen before and any help or advice would be greatly appreciated. I used a Larsen acrylic primer on gyspum walls as instructed on product (walls had been skimmed 8+ weeks previous and moisture tested prior to sealing and tiling). 18 months later and it seems the sealer has not bonded to the wall adhesive. Wall was coated with a 12mm trowel and a standard set flexible adhesive used, the tiles are 900mm by 150mm thin porcelain and within weight limit of plaster. Tiles have now come away from the wall with 100% of adhesive on the tiles and 0% left on the wall with sealer still appearing tacky on the walls. Walls are tiled 1.2m high around the room and the issue is only where sealer was applied to gypsum walls,other walls are scratch coated and solid as should be expected. Usually removal of tiles like these should take plaster and all with it, is this is a sealer failure or am I missing something? Apologies for the long post but I'm in the trade a long time and never encountered this.
Thanks

Sorry for the late welcome.
Any joy fixing your issues?

 

[Tiler87]

Is it a ground floor external wall? Cavity wall or solid wall?

Just wondering if the wall could be damp for the primer to remain tacky. Gypsum plasters shouldn't really be used on solid walls as they act like a sponge and absorb moisture.

Hi trigger, its on an internal wall and was moisture tested before primer was applied. Tiling is only 1.2 meters high on the wall and is painted above if damp was an issue I'd imagine the paint would be showing signs of this.

 

[Tiler87]

Sorry for the late welcome.
Any joy fixing your issues?

No Joy, Larsen rep sent through a report blaming everything but their product and claimed that the tile had taken a "weak" layer of gypsum off the wall, I asked how this was possible when trowel marks and sealer can still be seen on the wall and pointed out what he was actually seeing was collapsed adhesive ridges but he didnt want to hear it and said his report was final. Several jobs within my area have failed recently all different tilers all Larsen products and they have not taken responsibility for any of them, I think one of the tile shops have stopped supplying their products because of it. How are their products viewed by tilers in your area Lou?

Sorry for the late welcome.
Any joy fixing your issues?

 

[Lou]

No Joy, Larsen rep sent through a report blaming everything but their product and claimed that the tile had taken a "weak" layer of gypsum off the wall, I asked how this was possible when trowel marks and sealer can still be seen on the wall and pointed out what he was actually seeing was collapsed adhesive ridges but he didnt want to hear it and said his report was final. Several jobs within my area have failed recently all different tilers all Larsen products and they have not taken responsibility for any of them, I think one of the tile shops have stopped supplying their products because of it. How are their products viewed by tilers in your area Lou?

I'm not a tiler myself but @Dan said they're not one of the most used tile adhesives. We shall start a thread and get some feedback.

 

[Dan]

No Joy, Larsen rep sent through a report blaming everything but their product and claimed that the tile had taken a "weak" layer of gypsum off the wall, I asked how this was possible when trowel marks and sealer can still be seen on the wall and pointed out what he was actually seeing was collapsed adhesive ridges but he didnt want to hear it and said his report was final. Several jobs within my area have failed recently all different tilers all Larsen products and they have not taken responsibility for any of them, I think one of the tile shops have stopped supplying their products because of it. How are their products viewed by tilers in your area Lou?

Their say isn't final. You can pay The Tile Association a fortune for them to get an 'independent expert' in and do their own report, and if that says it's their adhesive or other product, then you can take them to court and 9/10 the court will go in your favour should the report be in your favour. People have done this a few times on here.

If you want more information, checkout TTA website, that has costs and things on it I think.

 

[Dan]

Larsen Tile Adhesive Fails - Anybody else experienced this? - Tiling Advice

I had an issue recently that I've never seen before and any help or advice would be greatly appreciated. I used a Larsen acrylic primer on gyspum walls as instructed on product (walls had been skimmed 8+ weeks previous and moisture tested prior to sealing and tiling). 18 months later and it...

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