Discuss a few hairline cracks in screed over wet UFH in the British & UK Tiling Forum area at TilersForums.com.

T

Tezza

I have a project that is an area of 70m3 which is across 4 rooms, 3 being open plan. A kithen, dining room and conservatory are all open plan with a utility area that is a seperate room. All rooms have under floor heating (Wet) and have had the ready mixed sand/cement screeding layed at 80mm thick with fibres added to the mix. The screed was layed over 2 days with the conservatory (18.5M3) being layed on the 2nd day. The screed was left for 2 weeks to dry with no UFH switched on. The UFH was switched on 3 days ago gradually turning the heat up slightly each day. I have had a crack appear at the joint (day 1 to day 2) which will have an expansion joint at that point anyway so i dont see it as being major problem. I also have some hairline cracks appear in other areas, i think through the UFH drying the screed out too quick. I was going to use BAL APD primer prior to tiling with BAL SPF adhesive but will these hairline cracks cause me a problem as i've little experience of wet UFH. The tiles to be used are chiseled edge 400x600 beige travertine. Any advice would be appreciated
 
D

DHTiling

Schluters Ditra would be ideal on a substrate like that....


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Bringing History Up To Date - Understanding The Tiling Shift
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Tiles debond from the substrate because bonding the tiles directly to the building structure means there is no "give" between the two separate parts of the assembly, and movement and stress cracks in the substrate are transferred to the surface, damaging the tiles. While the methods of installing ceramic tiles and stone have changed over the years, the physical dynamics of the assembly have not. The old traditional methods, used for centuries, addressed these dynamics by uncoupling the tile from the structural base through the use of a forgiving shear interface, in the form of a layer of sand.
Following the development of the thin-bed method of bonding the tile directly to the substrate with a very strong adhesive, problems occur because the rigid tiled surface moves at a different rate from the substrate.

An installed tile surface can be compared to a large sheet of glass. In addition to being a hard, brittle material, the tile also expands and contracts in reaction to environmental changes, but at a different rate from the substrate.
So, when the tile is strongly bonded directly to the substrate, it results in what is known as a "force transfer assembly," where this differential in the movement manifests itself as cracks in the tiled surface. One of the major causes of tiling installations failing is where stresses from the substrate are transferred in this way, into the finished covering of stone or ceramic tiles.
The solution is to install an uncoupling system - which utilises modern technology to bring the "sandwich" technique bang up to date. (This sandwich, used by ancient builders, comprised a structural base and a layer of sand, then a mortar bed - a mixture of sand, cement or other binder, and water - was laid, with the tile adhered on top).
Neutralising stresses by uncoupling the building structure from the tile is particularly important with the use of today's thinner, larger-format tiles and lightweight building materials.
The up-to-date method of uncoupling uses the Schlüter-DITRA polyethylene membrane, which safeguards installations over any even and load-bearing substrate.
Tiles will move independently from the screed because of different thermal expansion and contraction. Schlüter-DITRA neutralises this differential movement, preventing stresses being transferred to the tile covering. The system supports applied loads by transferring them directly to the load bearing substrate.
Schlüter-DITRA is a polyethylene matting with a fleece laminated to a grid-type structure of square cavities on the top. The fleece is adhered to the substrate with standard adhesive, and the adhesive used to stick the tiles actually anchors into the dovetailed configuration, mechanically locking the tiles onto the top. The cavities allow any stresses that occur between the substrate and the tiles to be neutralised evenly in all directions.
The matting itself has four main functions -- uncoupling, waterproofing, vapour diffusion over green screeds, and it bridges cracks such as timber board joints and cracks in screeds.
It protects the surface covering over a wide variety of substrates, including green concrete; green cement-based screeds, gypsum-based screeds, poured bituminous screeds, plywood and pressed wood, existing tile coverings, solid vinyl coverings or coatings, mixed substrates, gypsum plaster and plaster block, mixed masonry, and metal.
Today's tile installers have an array of materials and installation systems at their disposal to meet the UK's growing demand for this ideal surface covering. Setting materials are available in ever-increasing numbers to address the variety of substrates and tiles commonly used. Underlayments continue to be developed to protect tiles and guarantee a successful installation. Other developments include drainage, waterproofing and uncoupling membranes for use in both interior and exterior applications.
It's crucial that today's installers understand the physical dynamics of the entire tile assembly in order to achieve consistently successful results. Accepted wisdom regarding tile installation is now shifting away from the direct-bond philosophy, back to an understanding of the need for a forgiving shear interface to absorb stress.
This shift, with its resulting successful installations, represents a great deal of potential for the professional tiler.
 
D

DHTiling

APPLICATION AND FUNCTION

Schlüter-DITRA is a polyethylene membrane with a grid structure of square cavities, each cut back in a dovetail configuration, and an anchoring fleece laminated to its underside. Designed for tile and natural stone installations, Schlüter-DITRA serves as a waterproofing membrane, a vapour pressure equalisation layer to accommodate moisture occurring at the underside of the substrate, and an uncoupling layer for problematic substrates.

The substrate must be even and load bearing. To bond Schlüter-DITRA, use a bonding adhesive that is appropriate for the substrate. Apply the adhesive using a 3 x 3 mm or 4 x 4 mm notched trowel. The anchoring fleece on the underside of Schlüter-DITRA must be fully engaged in the adhesive to provide a mechanical bond to the substrate. Please observe the open time of the bonding adhesive.

Using the thin-bed method and following all applicable industry standards, set the tile or stone covering directly on the Schlüter-DITRA in such a way that the tile adhesive becomes mechanically anchored in the square, cut back cavities of the Schlüter-DITRA matting.

Summary of Functions

a) Uncoupling
Schlüter-DITRA uncouples the floor covering from the substrate and neutralises the tensions between the substrate and the tile covering that result from the varying deformations of the materials. Likewise, stress cracks in the substrate are bridged and are, therefore, not transferred to the surface covering.

b) Waterproofing
Schlüter-DITRA is a waterproof polyethylene membrane with a relatively high vapour diffusion density. Provided the joints, floor/wall connections, and connections to building fixtures are properly installed, Schlüter-DITRA creates a waterproofing assembly with the tile covering that meets the requirements of the mandatory guideline “Recommendations on Waterproofing in Conjunction with Panelling and Tile and Paver Coverings in Interior and Exterior Applications,” published by the German Construction Industry Association (ZDB).
If the material requires an official permit from German authorities, the corresponding test certificate is available and may be requested.
Thus, Schlüter-DITRA protects the substrate against damage due to moisture penetration and aggressive substances.

c) Equalisation of vapour pressure
The interconnected air channels between the cavities on the underside of the Schlüter-DITRA matting remain open. This allows moisture in the substrate to evaporate, thus neutralising vapour pressure.

d) Load distribution (load impact)
The bottom of the square cavities in Schlüter-DITRA, which are filled with thin-bed adhesive, directly transfer the load impact on the tile covering to the substrate. As a consequence, tile coverings installed on top of Schlüter-DITRA are highly load resistant. If high traffic loads are expected (e.g. in industrial locations), the tiles selected for the installation must be of the corresponding thickness and pressure stability. The requirements of the mandatory guideline “Ceramic Floor Coverings With High Impact Resistance,” published by the German Construction Industry Association (ZDB) must be followed. In areas with high impact loads, the tiles must be fully embedded in the thin-bed adhesive. The contact surface of Schlüter-DITRA amounts to approximately 50% of the total surface. This can reduce the load bearing capacity in case of point loads. For high point loads, select a tile thickness that is capable of distributing the loads. Ceramic tile coverings should not be exposed to the direct impact of hard objects. The tile dimensions should be at least 50 mm x 50 mm.

e) Adhesive properties
Due to the bonding of the anchoring fleece into the thin-bed adhesive on the underside and the mechanical anchoring of the adhesive in the cut back cavities, Schlüter-DITRA achieves a good adhesion of the tile covering to the substrate (laboratory test values: ~ 0.25N/mm2). Consequently, Schlüter-DITRA can be used for wall and floor coverings. Anchor plugs may be used with wall coverings if necessary.
 
D

DHTiling

Thanks Dave, whats the thickness that this will add to my floor level?


3mm


Just checked the price of Schlüter-DITRA and the installation method, its pricey stuff isn't it. On a 70m3 area with additional adhesive its going to be quite a few pounds!!:yikes:


Buying it by the roll, you can get it a lot cheaper.....but when working with stone , it is cheaper than a re-tile if it goes wrong or cracks appear...
 
R

Rob Z

Hi Tezza...

I agree with everything that Dave and GG have said above. Let me give you my perspective, if I may...we have installed something like 30 rolls of Ditra on our jobs over the past ~8 years or so (we use other brands of similar products but that amount is just for Ditra), and much of that has been over floor heating and/or fresh mud. I have not had one call-back or other issue for any of these jobs, including all of those that were quite tricky or demanding because of the floor heat, high loads on the floor, or other unusual site conditions that probably would have had issues if Ditra weren't used.

Doing the conversions for pounds to US dollars, and sq meters to sq feet, I note that the pricing on Ditra in the UK is on par with the pricing here in the US.

Hope that helps, and good luck on your job. :thumbsup:
 
R

Rob Z

Hi Tezza,

The main one is Noble Company CIS and TS. These are waterproof 40 mil sheet membranes that are bonded either with thinset mortar or with their proprietary glue. We also use Laticrete 9235, Blue 92, or Hydroban, or Custom Building Products RedGard...these are all liquids that are good for various surfaces that would be difficult to cover with a sheet such as Ditra or Noble CIS.

From talking the guys here, I think that the Noble and Laticrete products are not available/sold in the UK.
 
R

Rob Z

Tezza,

I had this picture because I posted on another forum...it shows one method we use for showers and floors. The Noble membrane (the blue sheet) is bonded to the floor and the walls with their proprietary glue. It is then folded down and bonded to the shower pan liner with another of their proprietary glues/sealants. The orange things in the corners are factory made three-way pieces that cover any potential gap in the folds there.

The curb is a Noble solid, waterproof piece of extruded foam. This thing is a real time saver because we just thinset it and nail into place, and it is ready for tile.

This product is good for both waterproofing (tanking :thumbsup:) and crack isolation.
 
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a few hairline cracks in screed over wet UFH
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Which tile adhesive brand did you use most this year?

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