Advice on how to proceed

[rachel]

We had a loft extension built over the summer with an ensuite shower with tiling over 3 walls.
There were some teething problems with the plumbing in the shower (2 leaks), then we carried on having a leak, but it seemed to be leaking through the grout. Some silicone was apply to areas of grout to see if it stopped the leaking.
The builder blamed the poor quality of the grout we had purchased and indeed the grout seemed to be cracking in many areas in the shower. Then some cracked tiles appeared. The builder then told us the tiles we had bought were 'weak'.

Whilst we didn't believe this the builder refused to do anything to the shower until we had got some feedback from the tile supplier (Fired Earth). 5 weeks or so later we finally managed to get a Fired Earth installer around who concluded there had been substrate movement and that as the tiles were fixed onto marine ply (which they said it couldn't really be as it was too expensive) there must have been some movement. Cracking in the grout remained to a certain extent unexplained although we think the tiler didn't add Flexibond to the grout.
Despite all these problems, the overall look of the shower wasn't bad (I know it sounds terrible to say that) and the tiler employed by the builder had done a reasonably neat job.
Having heard from FE we had a meeting with the builder who agreed to replace the cracked tiles and remove the cracked grout then regrout, presenting it all as a big favour to us.
On the day the builder sent one of the young chap who works for him to remove the tiles. The tiler who had done a good job before put some new tiles in and left. When we had a look that evening we realised that none of the old grout had been removed. The builder said they would buy a special tool and do it the next day. The next day, bits of the old grout were removed but most remained. The new tiles were grouted with the new grout and the new grout was smeared over the old grout (or some of it), not by the tiler but by the young chap.

Most of the tiles are covered in a film of grout, some will required scrubbing before coming off. Between the old grout and the new, Fired Earth changed grout suppliers so the 2 grouts look different, very different in fact. The builder also left the silicone that had been applied. The chap who applied the new grout left a tiny hole in one of the new lines of grout. I have just realised that this was filled with silicone.

Basically we are not happy with what's been redone. I just want to ask members their views on this situation and any ideas on how to proceed. The leaking has stopped after the regrouting and the builder seems to think all's well... Thanks in advance and sorry for the rambling...

 

[Daz]

Hi & welcome to TF Rachel.

It sounds as though you have had bit of a nightmare. Before posting too many comments, it would be very useful if you can provide a few pics, please?

 

[White Room]

Would'nt use ply of any discription on the walls, no tanking advised in a loft conversion.......

The ply sounds like it has flexed and caused the grout to crack

 

[Prem Tiler]

Oh dear. Where abouts are you? There may be a member on here could come round and have a look for you.

 

[kilty55]

hello,the second you said the tiles were cracking i knew thay had used ply,ply is not a good substrate to use on walls in a bathroom and i have seen this problem before,if it has bowed,swelled/shifted in some way which it seems it has then simply re fixing tiles is not appropriate.

if it was me i would want the wall stripped and re boarded without plywood thenr e tiled

any pics?

 

[Sean Kelly]

Rachel, Was the leak coming through the grout at the bottom of the shower wall? and was that the reason why the silicone was put there? Removing tiles & regrouting will not stop a leak. My guess is that the leak is still there. Fired Earth say that there has been substrate movement. However, this has not been addressed. How long ago was the shower regrouted? Where did you buy your original grout from? As Capt Slow says we need pics please. Cheers Sean

 

[Alan.P]

hello,the second you said the tiles were cracking i knew thay had used ply,ply is not a good substrate to use on walls in a bathroom and i have seen this problem before,if it has bowed,swelled/shifted in some way which it seems it has then simply re fixing tiles is not appropriate.

if it was me i would want the wall stripped and re boarded without plywood thenr e tiled

any pics?

Spot on mate, I wouldn't use ply on any floor level wall, let alone an attic, with it's change in temperature it's bound to move. If anything, it should be PB and the whole lot tanked for peace of mind, imagine the destruction that a leak on the top floor is going to do, my advice, rip it out and start again now, try and recoup some money off the builder, it was a builder and not a tiler ( why ) otherwise, this isn't going to go away, in my humble opinion that is.

 

[faithhealer]

welcome rachel, these leaks, do you mean plumbing leaks or water leaking through wall/ceiling

 

[Bathfix Bob]

I agree with Sean,

The fact that the repair was bodged in irelavent, the substrate is still moving and will fail againn and again until its sorted properly no matter how many times its been retiled.

 

[diamondtiling]

Welcome to the forum

No amount of repairs will stop these problems Rachel, the builder has made a massive mistake at the preparation stage.

 

[Scott]

I know ply isnt sutiable but there has to be some allowance here for the movement caused by settlement of the new roof. You cant cut out rafters in a roof, brace them up elsewhere and expect the thing not to move afterwards. I say this from experience as im currently in the middle of my new roof and the movement throught the house, including downstairs is huge.

I thinkthe biggest problem with the ply up in the loft space is the expansion and contraction of the board as the temperatures can be extreme if its not properly insulated. This causes the board to do things a cement backer board or plaster board wouldnt do and thats expand

 

[rachel]

Thanks a lot for your replies. I have a couple of pics and will try and send them.

The conversion was done in the summer. Most of the shower was fitted and tiled end of July. We were away as work was going on through the rest of the house too and we have a baby. When we returned the only thing that remained to be done in the loft was the fitting of the shower head and its support. By then the builder had declared the job completed and moved on to his next job. He sent his plumber round to do the fitting.
So here is what happened from then on.
Plumber fitted shower head/support
Next morning we use the shower for the first time and water comes leaking down on first floor of the house.
Plumber finds he drilled through a pipe to fit the shower head support
We use shower again still leaking.
Plumber comes round - a hole is made in first floor bathroom ceiling to find cause of the leak - this time the waste is found to have come loose.
We use shower again - still leaking but at a much slower rate.
Builder comes round with silicone and puts silicone along the inside of most of the shower enclosure (wrong according to enclosure manufacturer)
Shower still leaking when used - Client's showering style is then blamed and more silicone applied.
Shower still leaks. Builder comes round and puts more silicone.
Following day some cracks appeared in some tiles, and then within the course of a week or so about 8 tiles become cracked in various areas of the shower. Upon closer inspection it also becomes obvious that grout is cracking in many areas in the shower.
Builder is called but doesn't seem to know what to do. Says the grout was rubbish and the tiles are weak. All Fired Earth stuff.
I then decide to test various areas of the shower to see if I can see anything. It seems that water is being soaked by some areas of grout in the shower. When the shower spray is directed in some areas of the shower water started leaking through.
I then told the builder I wasn't happy that so much silicone has been applied and that nothing was being done to sort this out in a sensible way -- ie to try and find out the real cause of the problem.

After we got FE round (6 weeks later) he finally agreed to come back and remove the broken tiles and have a look behind. The deal was that he would look behind for any signs of movement or damage, then remove the cracked grout, replace the broken tiles then regrout. However he just said it wasn't wet behind (well it wouldn't be as we hadn't used the shower for weeks). He struggled to remove the grout which he said was like cement and said he would buy a special tool for this. But then the next day we realised that the old grout hadn't even been touched. The day after bits of grout was removed.

All along he has blamed the grout. What's difficult for us too is that the Fired Earth grout that was first used has been discontinued and they have brought out a new range of grout which we have had to use for this new regrout as none of the old one was left.
He seems to think he has done us a big favour by coming back. Although I understand from your comments that the tile installation was wrong in the first place at least the tiling/grouting was aesthetically quite neat and tidy. The new work is not good and it's like the builder can't be bothered anymore and we are worried about him coming back in case he makes matters even worse.

We thought we were supposed to give a tradesman a chance to put things right so that is why we agreed for the tiles to be removed -- also I guess we were hoping the real cause for the leak to be found.

At the moment he still has our keys, hasn't given us gas/electricity certificates and hasn't done a few other things around the house and we think he is waiting for us to say we will pay him the final completion payment for him to hand these over and mend our first floor bathroom ceiling. I guess the fact taht the shower doesn't seem to leak anymore -- we still have a hole in our first floor bathroom so we can check that --- will make him say he has sorted it all out and expect the money.

We would probably like to get someone else to sort things out but I guess are worried about the consequences and feel quite stupid for going along with all the siliconing etc in the first place. The builder came to us highly recommended and we were quite happy it all unravelled...

 

[faithhealer]

get those pictures for us rachel and we'll go from there. think you are going to have to dig in here for a while. Builders dont like giving money back. as you say, the inside of a shower shouldn't be siliconed so that any trapped water can flow back into the tray

 

[Bathfix Bob]

You say Rachel some tiles have now cracked? Is this a wet room type shower?

Then again it can't be if you have an enclosure, we are talking about wall tiles aren't we?

Whatever happens don't hand over that final payment yet till its sorted properly.

 

[jay]

pics would help