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The last joint infront of the units is where the kickboards were. The small slither have been added in afterwards. Kitchen is being replaced next year and the plinth was in such a bad state that trimming them down after tiling under the feet of the units would of destroyed the plinth.
G
Gazzer
They wanted charcoal grout ? There is a few odd things going on under the plinths ?
G
Gazzer
They want you to make them shine now ?
The slithers under where the plint will go were put in on request of the customer by a subby i employeed whilst i was on my holidays. I had orginally explained the state of the plinths and it was agreed as they were replacing the kitchen at the start of next year that tiling upto the plinth was acceptable. As long as i over ordered enough tiles to go completely under units to the walls when "i" do the kitchen install next year.
They were very happy with the tile. In particular the matt finish.
They were very happy with the tile. In particular the matt finish.
Let me also explain what the pictures are:
1) Is looking from the dining area down through to the kitchen.
2) The dining area floor
3) Kitchen area
4) Close up of kitchen area floor
5) End of hallway, at door entering kitchen/diner
6) Same position as 5 but looking down hall to front door
7) Front door looking down the hallway.
Anyone spotting any issues with setting out?
1) Is looking from the dining area down through to the kitchen.
2) The dining area floor
3) Kitchen area
4) Close up of kitchen area floor
5) End of hallway, at door entering kitchen/diner
6) Same position as 5 but looking down hall to front door
7) Front door looking down the hallway.
Anyone spotting any issues with setting out?
G
Gazzer
Welll I assume that because there is more than one photo we can say it is shown in pic 4 closest ?
G
Gazzer
They wanted Diamond set ?
They wanted hallway to be centred ?
They wanted hallway to be centred ?
in the hallway the cut on one side seems bigger than the cut on the other side..?
spill the beans then, i got to go out in a min....lol
G
Gazzer
Dont tease us !:lol:
My customer has just delayed by half an hour so i try and quickly explain now.
They had a wall between the kitchen and dining area. That has been removed and they wanted the kitchen, diner, hall and cloakroom tiled.
When setting everything out it became apparent that the staircase was "at an angle" Making the kitchen/diner all square etc was fine, but to lead this into the hallway in a continuous fashion would of ment having tiles down one side of the hallway differing by 1" 10/16ths down the length.
This was explained before the first tile was set in. 3 times in fact. To the husband, to the wife, and a third time when they were both avaiable.
The reason the hall is not centreed is also to avoide any slithers. Which is how it was previously tiled. So i explained a few different options. And what with the tile being full bodied porcelain it was decided that the best thing to do was to set the hallway and cloakroom out independently to that of the kitchen/diner. But cut the tiles to have a grout joint in the doorway between the two.
Now it was explained that this would leave what is shown in the picture i'm going to attach to this post. But it was also explained that once the door is fitted and the door to the cloakroom this would be barely noticeable. This WAS accepted.
Once the job was completed and after i returned from holiday i recieved a letter from the bank saying that their (the customers) cheque has been stopped. I went to see them and they are now not happy with the section above. But they were happy with it when explained, happy after it was tiled and grouted. I confirmed this before i went away and before i sealled all the grouting before going on holiday.
So i never got paid. I wrote the letters, emails etc etc. I even suggested that get their own opinions by getting independents out. They supposedly have had 3 independent, professional tilers out. Which, apparently have said it's been set out completely wrong, and have said the only way to rectify is to pull everything up and start again. (not just re-do the hallway with the tilers i left on-site)
I fully intended to take them to court for the monies as as far as my contractual obligation the job is complete as per quoatation. They agreed to the setting out. However, as i was going through all the paperwork to submit to the court i recieved court papers. They want £1700.00 plus fees off me to re-do the whole floor!
The offset between the two rooms was agreed, and accepted as the best way to avoid cuts that varied, and would be noticeable as soo as you walk through the door and/or slithers down the length of the hallway.
Any opinions (good or bad) welcomed.
They had a wall between the kitchen and dining area. That has been removed and they wanted the kitchen, diner, hall and cloakroom tiled.
When setting everything out it became apparent that the staircase was "at an angle" Making the kitchen/diner all square etc was fine, but to lead this into the hallway in a continuous fashion would of ment having tiles down one side of the hallway differing by 1" 10/16ths down the length.
This was explained before the first tile was set in. 3 times in fact. To the husband, to the wife, and a third time when they were both avaiable.
The reason the hall is not centreed is also to avoide any slithers. Which is how it was previously tiled. So i explained a few different options. And what with the tile being full bodied porcelain it was decided that the best thing to do was to set the hallway and cloakroom out independently to that of the kitchen/diner. But cut the tiles to have a grout joint in the doorway between the two.
Now it was explained that this would leave what is shown in the picture i'm going to attach to this post. But it was also explained that once the door is fitted and the door to the cloakroom this would be barely noticeable. This WAS accepted.
Once the job was completed and after i returned from holiday i recieved a letter from the bank saying that their (the customers) cheque has been stopped. I went to see them and they are now not happy with the section above. But they were happy with it when explained, happy after it was tiled and grouted. I confirmed this before i went away and before i sealled all the grouting before going on holiday.
So i never got paid. I wrote the letters, emails etc etc. I even suggested that get their own opinions by getting independents out. They supposedly have had 3 independent, professional tilers out. Which, apparently have said it's been set out completely wrong, and have said the only way to rectify is to pull everything up and start again. (not just re-do the hallway with the tilers i left on-site)
I fully intended to take them to court for the monies as as far as my contractual obligation the job is complete as per quoatation. They agreed to the setting out. However, as i was going through all the paperwork to submit to the court i recieved court papers. They want £1700.00 plus fees off me to re-do the whole floor!
The offset between the two rooms was agreed, and accepted as the best way to avoid cuts that varied, and would be noticeable as soo as you walk through the door and/or slithers down the length of the hallway.
Any opinions (good or bad) welcomed.
I have to run out now. But just to add it was me that suggested the independent reports. They say they've had people out but i've not heard anything on the grapevine is my suppliers about it. But also they refuse to divulge who came out and have no reports to show me. Just the customers word on court papers that 3 independents have been out and all supposedly said the whole floor needs to be lifted.
jesus christ dirty beggars,you will not be the 1st or the last to deal with a rogue customer mate
this is just my opinion but i would think the majority of contractors in ths climate will slate any job to the extent of them winning the new job
that job imo is no way a rip out and they have highlighted only 1 area they are not satisfied with ,they also agreed verbally to you doing this
sometimes its not possible to square off multiple rooms dependant on what the walls/finishings are like situ wise and you gave them an option to help this
keeping all your payment and demanding you pay 1700 quid for a new job is nothing more than disgusting imo and i would take it all the way
now they have had there chance to get there 3 independant reports why dont you send your own 3 chosen contractors round to give you there written statements on the job fairs fair isnt it.
let us know how you get on ali as i am in a similar position right now with a customer i highlighted on here 2 weeks ago who are now trying to make me pay the full cost of there bathroom refit which is 6k and i havent even prepared the room yet!!!! i have chosen not to put the details up here atm as the stress its causing me is already enough but i will post the outcome and how the process went once complete and hopefully it will help anyone in similar circumstances
this is just my opinion but i would think the majority of contractors in ths climate will slate any job to the extent of them winning the new job
that job imo is no way a rip out and they have highlighted only 1 area they are not satisfied with ,they also agreed verbally to you doing this
sometimes its not possible to square off multiple rooms dependant on what the walls/finishings are like situ wise and you gave them an option to help this
keeping all your payment and demanding you pay 1700 quid for a new job is nothing more than disgusting imo and i would take it all the way
now they have had there chance to get there 3 independant reports why dont you send your own 3 chosen contractors round to give you there written statements on the job fairs fair isnt it.
let us know how you get on ali as i am in a similar position right now with a customer i highlighted on here 2 weeks ago who are now trying to make me pay the full cost of there bathroom refit which is 6k and i havent even prepared the room yet!!!! i have chosen not to put the details up here atm as the stress its causing me is already enough but i will post the outcome and how the process went once complete and hopefully it will help anyone in similar circumstances
when im tiling jobs like this , i always try and start full tiles in the middle of the doorways and square off hallway as this tends to be the main focal piont, however this is not allways possible due to slithers,walls running out miles ect, i then do as you did and run through opptions with the client, lay tiles out, show them the different ways the job can be done, and suggest the way i would do it if it were my tiling, but make sure they are fully happy with the lay out before i start..
do we really have to get everything in writing now a days, just to cover ourselfs? cant belive its coming to this...im not sure , but i think its against the law to stop a cheque once its been issued, might be worth getting some legal addvice.
sending out 3 independent tilers to look at the job seems pointless, no two tilers would work a floor out the same way, the main point is you showed them how the floor would be done and they excepted that....end of.
did they know you would not be doing the job, do they think there being hard done by having a lesser tradesman doing the job ?.....i know ive done quotes in the past and customers insist its me that do the job..
good luck with it mate and dont let the barstools wear you out!!!
do we really have to get everything in writing now a days, just to cover ourselfs? cant belive its coming to this...im not sure , but i think its against the law to stop a cheque once its been issued, might be worth getting some legal addvice.
sending out 3 independent tilers to look at the job seems pointless, no two tilers would work a floor out the same way, the main point is you showed them how the floor would be done and they excepted that....end of.
did they know you would not be doing the job, do they think there being hard done by having a lesser tradesman doing the job ?.....i know ive done quotes in the past and customers insist its me that do the job..
good luck with it mate and dont let the barstools wear you out!!!
D
DHTiling
They wanted no lippage :lol:
Is the setting out issue defined in any paperwork from either party. If notit becomes your word against theirs on that bit.
If setting out is NOT defined in any partof the contract how anyone else would doit is completely irrelevant. The major advantage you have is that you have supplied a floor which is suitable and fit for the purpose it is intended to be used for. Provided the setting out is the only issue you as the tiling expert would receive the benefit of the doubt as you have set it out in a manner which caused the fewest issues e.g slivers of tiles etc. if you have anything saying that you are setting it out the way you have then even better butif not I would say don't worry aout it and counter sue them anyway. This is one of those cases that I beleive common sense wold come down firmly on your side. I do not beleive contract law or provisions goods and services act would contain anything to say it has to look a certain way. They only refer to phrases like "must be of the nature qualit and substance reasonably expected by the customer" if they have sent you court papers you must launch a vigorous defence and try and use the courts as an absolute last resort.
my only reservation with all thisis that even if you sue them and win will you actually ever get paid. Customers like this often just simply don't want to pay. I have met a few in my time.
If setting out is NOT defined in any partof the contract how anyone else would doit is completely irrelevant. The major advantage you have is that you have supplied a floor which is suitable and fit for the purpose it is intended to be used for. Provided the setting out is the only issue you as the tiling expert would receive the benefit of the doubt as you have set it out in a manner which caused the fewest issues e.g slivers of tiles etc. if you have anything saying that you are setting it out the way you have then even better butif not I would say don't worry aout it and counter sue them anyway. This is one of those cases that I beleive common sense wold come down firmly on your side. I do not beleive contract law or provisions goods and services act would contain anything to say it has to look a certain way. They only refer to phrases like "must be of the nature qualit and substance reasonably expected by the customer" if they have sent you court papers you must launch a vigorous defence and try and use the courts as an absolute last resort.
my only reservation with all thisis that even if you sue them and win will you actually ever get paid. Customers like this often just simply don't want to pay. I have met a few in my time.
Thanks for all your replys guys. I've just got back from complete the travertine floor i went out to. I will come back to this later.
But, all of what you are saying is how i was looking at it. I have nothing in writing about the issue they've raised. But i do have photos of how it was previously tiled, that show the slithers. The tile i've layed is the same size tile as the orginal.
I didn't sub the tiling out. I got the whole floor laid and the kitchen diner grouted and sealed before i went away. My subby just grouted the hallway. He was there a few days before to lend me a hand to try and get it finished before i went on my holidays, but with the aim that if we didn't the customer would know him, hopefully enough to have no issues with him staying on to finish it off. And they were.
A few days in the wife did make a comment to me about his work, the stress he was under and how he thought the employer was trying to get rid of him. I was suspicious from this point. But, my partner has been cutting this fasmilies hair for the past three years. Neither of us thought they'd pull this one. I'm pretty certain they just didn't want to pay and think they can get away with it.
There are 1 or 2 lips on the floor Dave. But i did measure them and not of them exceed 1mm. Something the blokes wife witnessed me do.
I have until Friday to respond and i WILL be responding. I'm just debating on how much i can counter claim for damages, lose of earning, charges, interest etc. I'll keep you posted anyway. Only been in this position once before, that was after i packed up and walked off a job when the customer got mega aggressive with me and my labourer i was employing at the time. They tried taking me to court to foot someone elses bill to complete the job. A bill of which exceeded my orginal quote by 300%. I won that one within 20 minutes of being in chambers.
But i wasn't really out of pocket on that one, i recieved a deposit that compensated for the ammount of work that had been completed when i walked. This one however, they owe me almost a grand. It's made finances quite tough over the last month.
I'll keep you posted anyhow.
But, all of what you are saying is how i was looking at it. I have nothing in writing about the issue they've raised. But i do have photos of how it was previously tiled, that show the slithers. The tile i've layed is the same size tile as the orginal.
I didn't sub the tiling out. I got the whole floor laid and the kitchen diner grouted and sealed before i went away. My subby just grouted the hallway. He was there a few days before to lend me a hand to try and get it finished before i went on my holidays, but with the aim that if we didn't the customer would know him, hopefully enough to have no issues with him staying on to finish it off. And they were.
A few days in the wife did make a comment to me about his work, the stress he was under and how he thought the employer was trying to get rid of him. I was suspicious from this point. But, my partner has been cutting this fasmilies hair for the past three years. Neither of us thought they'd pull this one. I'm pretty certain they just didn't want to pay and think they can get away with it.
There are 1 or 2 lips on the floor Dave. But i did measure them and not of them exceed 1mm. Something the blokes wife witnessed me do.
I have until Friday to respond and i WILL be responding. I'm just debating on how much i can counter claim for damages, lose of earning, charges, interest etc. I'll keep you posted anyway. Only been in this position once before, that was after i packed up and walked off a job when the customer got mega aggressive with me and my labourer i was employing at the time. They tried taking me to court to foot someone elses bill to complete the job. A bill of which exceeded my orginal quote by 300%. I won that one within 20 minutes of being in chambers.
But i wasn't really out of pocket on that one, i recieved a deposit that compensated for the ammount of work that had been completed when i walked. This one however, they owe me almost a grand. It's made finances quite tough over the last month.
I'll keep you posted anyhow.
T
The D
is there a dip in the floor in the middle of the room in front of the door pick 2 ?
J
jonnyc
this is difficult. if you discussed and agreed the way set out was to be done and there are no other issues, it is indeed your word against theirs.
Have you asked them to put in writing that they did not agree to your suggested layout.
they could just be trying it on and if you put in writing that you need their written affirmation that they did not agree to this set out bas you will be submitting this at small claims , they may loose their nerve.
there is a logic to what you did and a judge only deals in facts .
if standard of tiling is adequate as ajax says you have a good chance . i would call their bluff.
Have you asked them to put in writing that they did not agree to your suggested layout.
they could just be trying it on and if you put in writing that you need their written affirmation that they did not agree to this set out bas you will be submitting this at small claims , they may loose their nerve.
there is a logic to what you did and a judge only deals in facts .
if standard of tiling is adequate as ajax says you have a good chance . i would call their bluff.
O
Olz
I've personally experienced this and the matter extremley clear cut and simple.......
You cant legally stop and cheque because you are not happy with the goods / services, they have shot themselves in the foot, you can take this to county court and win, they cannot defend the claim.
Do the below straight away.
1.) Send them a notice of dishonour via recorded delivery straight away, then if no payment is forthcoming then submit a county court claim via money claim online and immediatley, claim the full amount of the cheque that they stopped. You dont need to show they were happy with the work, or that it is up to scratch, the law is very strict and very clear on stopping cheques, and unless there is one of a very small and specific list of reasons they will not be able to defend the claim. You will also get interest added for the delay, and the court costs back.
You can only cancel a cheque if its stolen, obtained fraudulantly, you recieve ZERO, goods or services in return, the contract between the two parties is illegal.
Notice of Dishonour you need to send first is;
Dear XXXXX,
Notice of Dishonour
We give you notice that cheque number *** dated *** account no.*** of *** Bank drawn by you to pay your arrears of £*** Has been confirmed dishonoured on *** date by reason of non-payment and that you are held responsible.
Payment of the aforesaid sum is required in cleared funds within seven days of the date of this letter. Failure to pay the same will result in Court proceedings being issued without further notice.
Yours faithfully
Then if they dont reply submit a county court claim via money claims on line as follows. (you may even be able to just counter claim in the current case, Ring the court clerk at the county court and they'll offer you some advice.
On *** date I installed floor tiles at *** Address, having been instructed to do so by the house owner Mr/Mrs XXXXX.
This work was completed on *** date and a cheque for full and final payment was issued by Mr/Mrs ***, this being cheque number *** from account *** signed by *** and dated ***.
On the *** i recieved notice from my bank that mr/mrs *** had cancelled the cheque. Communication to resolve this matter with Mr/Mrs *** has failed and I now wish to bring a claim under the Bill of exchange act to recover the full amount of the cheque paid.
I confirm that the cheque was issued to myself by Mr/Mrs *** as means of pyament for the work undertaken and materials provided.
Goods and Services were provided, the cheque was not stolen or obtained fraudulantly, the verbal contract between myself and the customer was not illegal.
Regards
***
I cannot stress enough that they are unable to defend this action, they may still persue the claim against your for the work, but you should be able to defend easily, given what you've said.
Same happened to me a couple of years ago, she was trying to get out of paying and tried to do the same to a plumber, window company and a gas fitter, we all hammered her really simply becuase she made the mistake of paying us all by check and then cancelling them.
She was a friend of a friend and apparantly she thought she was really clever when she thought her defence of not being happy with the work would get her out of paying, and apparantly she was spitting feathers when she was told by the court that she had no defence, the cheque was for around £800, she was ordered to pay me about £1100, she still didnt pay so I took it further and ended up with a baliff going round and clamping her car, she then quickly coughed up, with the baliff charges added in it cost her abour £1800.
I've kept all the paperwork for that job, with the court papers as well in a seperate folder which I look at every so ofter because it makes me smile knowing she tried to shaft me and it back fired on her big time.
I think i wrote a thread about it at the time, ill try and find it.
You cant legally stop and cheque because you are not happy with the goods / services, they have shot themselves in the foot, you can take this to county court and win, they cannot defend the claim.
Do the below straight away.
1.) Send them a notice of dishonour via recorded delivery straight away, then if no payment is forthcoming then submit a county court claim via money claim online and immediatley, claim the full amount of the cheque that they stopped. You dont need to show they were happy with the work, or that it is up to scratch, the law is very strict and very clear on stopping cheques, and unless there is one of a very small and specific list of reasons they will not be able to defend the claim. You will also get interest added for the delay, and the court costs back.
You can only cancel a cheque if its stolen, obtained fraudulantly, you recieve ZERO, goods or services in return, the contract between the two parties is illegal.
Notice of Dishonour you need to send first is;
Dear XXXXX,
Notice of Dishonour
We give you notice that cheque number *** dated *** account no.*** of *** Bank drawn by you to pay your arrears of £*** Has been confirmed dishonoured on *** date by reason of non-payment and that you are held responsible.
Payment of the aforesaid sum is required in cleared funds within seven days of the date of this letter. Failure to pay the same will result in Court proceedings being issued without further notice.
Yours faithfully
Then if they dont reply submit a county court claim via money claims on line as follows. (you may even be able to just counter claim in the current case, Ring the court clerk at the county court and they'll offer you some advice.
On *** date I installed floor tiles at *** Address, having been instructed to do so by the house owner Mr/Mrs XXXXX.
This work was completed on *** date and a cheque for full and final payment was issued by Mr/Mrs ***, this being cheque number *** from account *** signed by *** and dated ***.
On the *** i recieved notice from my bank that mr/mrs *** had cancelled the cheque. Communication to resolve this matter with Mr/Mrs *** has failed and I now wish to bring a claim under the Bill of exchange act to recover the full amount of the cheque paid.
I confirm that the cheque was issued to myself by Mr/Mrs *** as means of pyament for the work undertaken and materials provided.
Goods and Services were provided, the cheque was not stolen or obtained fraudulantly, the verbal contract between myself and the customer was not illegal.
Regards
***
I cannot stress enough that they are unable to defend this action, they may still persue the claim against your for the work, but you should be able to defend easily, given what you've said.
Same happened to me a couple of years ago, she was trying to get out of paying and tried to do the same to a plumber, window company and a gas fitter, we all hammered her really simply becuase she made the mistake of paying us all by check and then cancelling them.
She was a friend of a friend and apparantly she thought she was really clever when she thought her defence of not being happy with the work would get her out of paying, and apparantly she was spitting feathers when she was told by the court that she had no defence, the cheque was for around £800, she was ordered to pay me about £1100, she still didnt pay so I took it further and ended up with a baliff going round and clamping her car, she then quickly coughed up, with the baliff charges added in it cost her abour £1800.
I've kept all the paperwork for that job, with the court papers as well in a seperate folder which I look at every so ofter because it makes me smile knowing she tried to shaft me and it back fired on her big time.
I think i wrote a thread about it at the time, ill try and find it.
G
Gazzer
Excellent stuff Oli :hurray:
There are similar tiling threads here
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