Can i have your thoughts please guys

[Diamond Pool Finishers]

This is a mosaic i fitted to a swimming pool in 2008 , before i was aware of the problems associated with the carrier systems IE mesh/and pasted adhesive, making a barrier between tile surface area and cement based thin-set tile adhesive , i have soaked the tiles in a dye that attaches to the starch in the paste that is used to fix tile to mesh in the far-east , so IMO highlighting how much of the tesserae surface is taken-up with this past/mesh, the mosaics are shedding from the pool in single & small clusters ,

 

[DHTiling]

Not a lot left for a bond is there...

 

[Time's Ran Out]

Wear and tear after 5 years!
How long is your guarantee?

 

[Diamond Pool Finishers]

Wear and tear after 5 years!
How long is your guarantee?

Two years usually John

 

[The D]

View attachment 51006 This is a mosaic i fitted to a swimming pool in 2008 , before i was aware of the problems associated with the carrier systems IE mesh/and pasted adhesive, making a barrier between tile surface area and cement based thin-set tile adhesive , i have soaked the tiles in a dye that attaches to the starch in the paste that is used to fix tile to mesh in the far-east , so IMO highlighting how much of the tesserae surface is taken-up with this past/mesh, the mosaics are shedding from the pool in single & small clusters ,

So do you think you are at fault or the manufacturers ??

 

[Diamond Pool Finishers]

Well Dean, i think the suppliers have supplied a product ,that is not fit for the purpose it was intended ,IE a swimming pool, due to the fact that there is a past/mesh barrier significantly reducing the potential surface fixing area of the individual tessera, & impeding contact between tile surface and cement based Adhesive .as i think is highlighted by my crude experiment, and now i may go forward to a lab and have them tested by an expert ,then maybe make a claim against them ?

 

[The D]

Well Dean, i think the suppliers have supplied a product ,that is not fit for the purpose it was intended ,IE a swimming pool, due to the fact that there is a past/mesh barrier significantly reducing the potential surface fixing area of the individual tessera, & impeding contact between tile surface and cement based Adhesive .as i think is highlighted by my crude experiment, and now i may go forward to a lab and have them tested by an expert ,then maybe make a claim against them ?

Your reply is very eloquently put and dose use some impressive wording it also demonstrates a high level of intellect and I am just playing devils advocate but do you not think they may have a point that they sold the tiles but you was the on site pool specialist and as such should have spotted the problem and advised the client that they was not fit for purpose and refused to install them. Saying you did not know about the issue is no good as it is in the BS 5385 and ignorance in not a defence.

 

[Time's Ran Out]

So effectively only paper faced mosaic should be used on all installations?

 

[Peter]

Seems like paper faced should be the only way to do it in any area over a metre square. Bloody nightmare soaking the paper off though :lol:

 

[Diamond Pool Finishers]

Your reply is very eloquently put and dose use some impressive wording it also demonstrates a high level of intellect and I am just playing devils advocate but do you not think they may have a point that they sold the tiles but you was the on site pool specialist and as such should have spotted the problem and advised the client that they was not fit for purpose and refused to install them. Saying you did not know about the issue is no good as it is in the BS 5385 and ignorance in not a defence.

Thanks , and yes that could be one argument as you say , but remember this job was five years ago ,and i was not aware of there being any probs with the Carrier systems also think back to when you first became aware of these probs,it was tops two years ago, i have been fixing mesh backed tiles like this for 25 years, we would all be guilty under that claim of ignorance as a defence , funny i thought the same this-morning ! but when is ignorance a defence ? surly at some point, anyway i will not fix meshed-backed tiles ! i have not done so for nearly five years after becoming enlightened as to the problems they throw -up, as we all (most ) know by now,but surely the suppliers were aware before us ? and why are they still selling them ! this sample was one i had sent to me free the other week !from a reputable supplier who sells them as part of there swimming pool range !!.

 

[Diamond Pool Finishers]

Oh john & peter.
there are other carrier systems on the market now, that are far better suited to being continually submerged in water,take a read of this http://splashmagazine.com.au/uploads/Tiling.pdf . but i would still use and still like paper-faced , i cut my teeth on them !! LOL

 

[The D]

You are missing my point m8 5 years ago or 10 years ago it was still in the BS you as a specialist pool finisher should have known and should have refused to fix them. As for me only knowing about this two years ago you’re a few years out with that but it was not so long ago I had to recall it.

 

[Diamond Pool Finishers]

You are missing my point m8 5 years ago or 10 years ago it was still in the BS you as a specialist pool finisher should have known and should have refused to fix them. As for me only knowing about this two years ago you’re a few years out with that but it was not so long ago I had to recall it.

well fair point , not sure when it did go into the BS ?, but BS are just recommendations and are not Law- is my understanding, we in the pool industry tend to rely on maybe three at the most- suppliers who supply a product that they specifically sell to us as fit for purpose ,IE the swimming pool environment which is a very harsh-one, otherwise we would have to have the mosaics for each individual job tested in a lab to give us the ok for , now this would be impractical so this is how they have there niche market, i feel the suppliers of the mosaic are ether to blame or are at least apportioned some of that blame ? as well !, !,this is only one of the major problems with this pool, there is other stuff going on with it as well, but i don't want to fry anyones brain ! all at once LOL , great and testing point's Dean thanks so far ,i do get what you say mate, its just i'am looking to try to justify myself ......i suppose

 

[AliGage]

This is a topic that has interested me since the infamous post about deano refusing to fit some porcelanosa ones.
I don't do swimming pools. But further back in this post either deano or the DPF Suggest if its over a square metre then there could be issues. Can you guys perhaps post a few pictures to show the sorts of backing that doesn't conform? Im getting a little hot and sweaty over some largeish feature walls I've done

 

[Diamond Pool Finishers]

Nice one ALI.
If you track back a bit in the thread it was actually Peter who mentioned something about over 1m2 ! ( not sure what he meant by that ).
Anyway i would not personally -fix any Mesh-back mosaic systems in to swimming pools again, i would however consider using any of the systems in the article that i linked above, or similar that i would be happy that the tessera would make at least 75% contact with the tile adhesive, ( did you click on the link above ) it show's you good carrier systems mate.....

 

[AliGage]

On the mobile at the moment mate. But ill make a point of looking at it all when i can get to the laptop later.

 

[Eduardo]

My first pool was about more then 15 years, Bisazza, mosaic on mesh.I've done a few dozens after that.Public swimming pools in Italy warranty is 10 years,written or not in the contract, no matter,this is the law.I was called only one time,and after investigations made ​​by specialists,conclusion was to use an aggressive cleaning product.There are many causes for failure of sticking mosaic,including: water hardness, products for keeping clean water,cleaning and preparing for winter,freezing,adhesive,grout,etc.In my opinion,mosaic on mesh or paper are not allowed to break away if you use a strong adhesive,and will be properly installed.Give me a two-component adhesive,and I will overturn the universe:lol:

 

[Diamond Pool Finishers]

You are also write ED ,as you say the water chemistry and cleaning regime can be a major contributing factor in the success of the lining , even the maintenance has to be wright and also filling and emptying need to be carried -out in the correct manner ,.
When you say two component Adhesive, do you mean epoxide ?

 

[mz30]

Is this problem going to cost you money mate?is your guarantee still valid? i can understand why your looking at it but a lot can happen in 5 years,your install maybe sound and other factors have affected the tiles,i have worked on a few pools over the years and to be honest i cant remember doing one that wasnt mesh backed.

I know of no failures on the ones i worked on(could have happened though).

 

[CJ]

View attachment 51006 This is a mosaic i fitted to a swimming pool in 2008 , before i was aware of the problems associated with the carrier systems IE mesh/and pasted adhesive, making a barrier between tile surface area and cement based thin-set tile adhesive , i have soaked the tiles in a dye that attaches to the starch in the paste that is used to fix tile to mesh in the far-east , so IMO highlighting how much of the tesserae surface is taken-up with this past/mesh, the mosaics are shedding from the pool in single & small clusters ,

You put them on back to front matey:smilewinkgrin:

 

[Eduardo]

You are also write ED ,as you say the water chemistry and cleaning regime can be a major contributing factor in the success of the lining , even the maintenance has to be wright and also filling and emptying need to be carried -out in the correct manner ,.
When you say two component Adhesive, do you mean epoxide ?

ADESIVO CEMENTIZIO BICOMPONENTE A SCIVOLAMENTO NULLO - KERACRETE - MAPEI

 

[Ajax123]

What is the nature of the delamination Dave. Are the tesserae coming away from the mesh and the mesh staying put or are they coming away from the adhesive with the mesh still attached. Is the adhesive coming away partly on the tile/mesh or are they coming away clean.

If the first option it would suggest an issue with the adhesive that sticks the mesh to the tile and hence a tile issue (in the respect that the tiles are failing) this could be user error or material defect.

if the second option this would suggest either an application issue in that the tile adhesive has failed to "wet" the back of the tile and has not achieved a sufficient bond. Bear in mind that if the mesh is firmly attached to the tile then the tile adhesive sticks to both bits compositley so they should act as a unit. Thus the adhesive sticking to the mesh as much as the tile would constitute a full contact bond.

if the last option the this suggests a cohesive failure within the tile adhesive suggesting an adhesive failure which could be one of several causes....

 

[Diamond Pool Finishers]

What is the nature of the delamination Dave. Are the tesserae coming away from the mesh and the mesh staying put or are they coming away from the adhesive with the mesh still attached. Is the adhesive coming away partly on the tile/mesh or are they coming away clean.

If the first option it would suggest an issue with the adhesive that sticks the mesh to the tile and hence a tile issue (in the respect that the tiles are failing) this could be user error or material defect.

if the second option this would suggest either an application issue in that the tile adhesive has failed to "wet" the back of the tile and has not achieved a sufficient bond. Bear in mind that if the mesh is firmly attached to the tile then the tile adhesive sticks to both bits compositley so they should act as a unit. Thus the adhesive sticking to the mesh as much as the tile would constitute a full contact bond.

if the last option the this suggests a cohesive failure within the tile adhesive suggesting an adhesive failure which could be one of several causes....

Hi alan.
The tiles are coming away clean from socket and leaving a good impression of the back of the tile in the cement based Adhesive ,so i know they were well bedded -in , i use a heavy ramondi tile batter some of the lads on here use them as well, also the sockets are slimy and the mesh is intact .....

 

[Ajax123]

The sockets being slimy could be a good clue. Do you know what basis the mesh glue is. I.e. acrylic, epoxy etc?