Do customers need to take the blame when they've employed a tiler and it goes wrong?

[AliGage]

Correct @Dan

If your going to the letter if the law, but dont think theres an opportunity much for this to happen.

Good topic. Because this is swings and roundabouts. A good tiler would deal or eliminate snagging through the process. As would any good tradesman to be fair.

I couldnt imagine a client paying everything upfront. But then I ask gir a deposit to cover mats. Shows commitment from them too.
But if I client is willing to hand over his hard earned cash and not check references or anything then they have to take that responsibility, damn sure I wouldnt hand it all over, and I WOULD check rererences before even accepting the quote.

 

[Rizzle from the Portizzle]

well the rot comes from the tile sheds. they do all they can to imply our trade is diy no more no less so clients are lead to think that any one in the building trade can do it .so yes the clients become lazy on checking up as its easy realy . so how did we come to this think back.

 

[Dan]

Correct @Dan

If your going to the letter if the law, but dont think theres an opportunity much for this to happen.

Good topic. Because this is swings and roundabouts. A good tiler would deal or eliminate snagging through the process. As would any good tradesman to be fair.

I couldnt imagine a client paying everything upfront. But then I ask gir a deposit to cover mats. Shows commitment from them too.
But if I client is willing to hand over his hard earned cash and not check references or anything then they have to take that responsibility, damn sure I wouldnt hand it all over, and I WOULD check rererences before even accepting the quote.

Dom from the daytime version of rogue trader or whatever it's called seems to suggest you always keep some money back.

 

[White Room]

well the rot comes from the tile sheds. they do all they can to imply our trade is diy no more no less so clients are lead to think that any one in the building trade can do it .so yes the clients become lazy on checking up as its easy realy . so how did we come to this think back.

Diy programmes are killer....

 

[Dougs Third Go]

So what if a customer overrules your advice?, say something like decoupling, they don't want the added expense and you can't honestly say hand on heart that the job will fail without using it?...so you do the job without it and the job fails. I actually think in cases like that the tiler shouldn't be accountable as the advice has been given and customer decides to decline it.

 

[Glynn]

I once heard of a Tiler getting prosecuted for what you have said. He gave advice, the customers didn't like it, so the Tiler did what the customer wanted and it failed. The Tiler was prosecuted because he was a professional person who knew what he was doing was wrong. So if that case is true there is not a defence from "the customer wanted it that way your Honour". Its very hard to walk away from good earning work but if you think you may be setting your self up to fail common sense says the job may come back to bite you on the wallet. We have just declined to put a spec together for a 300m2 18mm tongue and grooved ply-wood floor because it was to bouncy and the customer would not overlay it with a Backer-board, but said "I will accept it if there are small cracks". Were we wise to decline this job?

 

[Old Mod]

I once heard of a Tiler getting prosecuted for what you have said. He gave advice, the customers didn't like it, so the Tiler did what the customer wanted and it failed. The Tiler was prosecuted because he was a professional person who knew what he was doing was wrong. So if that case is true there is not a defence from "the customer wanted it that way your Honour". Its very hard to walk away from good earning work but if you think you may be setting your self up to fail common sense says the job may come back to bite you on the wallet. We have just declined to put a spec together for a 300m2 18mm tongue and grooved ply-wood floor because it was to bouncy and the customer would not overlay it with a Backer-board, but said "I will accept it if there are small cracks". Were we wise to decline this job?

I think u were absolutely right to decline!
I would imagine from an adhesive company's perspective it could be potentially very damaging, especially for a young company trying to compete with longstanding global brands.

Similarly on the note of responsibility, when I made a suggestion to Schluter about carrying out a project which I knew to involve an incorrect procedure on the proviso of a disclaimer, I was quite clearly informed that in any subsequent court battle involving a failure of some kind, I would still be responsible! (Which seems unfair!)
It is my responsibility to carry out the correct procedure as a professional, after all I'm being paid for my knowledge and skill set, therefore ultimately it's my responsibility to carry out the works in a professional manner, not in the way 'the client' thinks I should!
Now I've never tested this theory, however I don't actually know the correct legal standpoint, so I could be wrong, but I'm not about to test it! Haha

And just on the subject of 'fully qualified'
......I have a drivers licence!.....is that any good?

 

[Colour Republic]

I'm always amazed when tradesmen automatically thinks the home owner is to blame when a job goes pear shaped. It's all very well saying you should have done X you should have asked Y... But that's very easy to say when you are in the trade and from a position of knowledge.

Dan makes a good point whereby we've seen jobs go horribly wrong even when a tile shop has recommended a tiler. Common sense dictates that if you were going to look for recommendations then a tile shop would be a bloody good place to start. The reality is that not all tile shop staff know what they're talking about, in addition that recommendation could be based on that tilers yearly spend or just because he's a likeable.

Getting recommendations from friends and family can also have its problems. Just because a tiler made a reasonable job on Mr and Mrs Smith's kitchen splash back with 100x100 bumpy whites is no guarantee he's going to be able to tile your marble staircase.

Getting 3 quotes has always seemed like a silly idea to me as well. You could unknowingly get 2 quotes from a tradesmen that don't know how to spec a job correctly and therefore under price it and get a 3rd who goes to town and comes out 2 or 3 times the price. You could forgive the home owner for thinking that the 2 cheap quotes are the market rate and the 3rd was trying to rip them off. Especially as the advice for years has been 'get 3 quotes and go for the middle one'

Then you have these online review sites like mybuilder, rated people etc etc... The websites customers are the tradesmen and not the home owners, we all know that bad reviews are not always let through. What's more the tradesmen can get fantastic 5 star reviews for fixing leaky taps but again doesn't mean he has the first clue about installing a whole house wet UFH system.

All of the above methods are flawed. So it's no wonder home owners can end up with shoddy workmanship, even when they have taken reasonable steps to get someone decent in.

Personally I believe the only real way of knowing if anybody is any good is to go and look at a current job they are working on and if at all possible go and see completed jobs.

Home owners can be forgiven more times than not. The only time I think they get what they deserve is when they have blatantly gone for the very cheapest price or they have been given advice by multiple sources and still decided they know best and dictate how a job is carried out and/or specified.

 

[Tile Shop]

I need to learn to keep these posts shorter. But once I start..... so hears another essay for ya

Tile shops should never recommend anyone. Leaving cards and photos of a tilers work on the counter is ok to give the customers an option only, but the words "I recommend Mr/Mrs/Miss X" should never be uttered.

I speak to customers every day and am always getting asked this, but I must say I learn't from a very big mistake when I was new to the job, young, dumb and nieve. And the reason why I recommended this "tiler"???? he used to buy me donuts! I'd never been to see his work, i didn't have the experience to know if he was any good. As long as I was getting fed and he was buying his adhesive, I was happy to give his name out.....

UNTIL, customer complaints started to come in, he had disappeared and wouldn't correct any of his work, wouldn't answer calls from the customer etc.... But it was all my fault because I used the "R" word. After seeing some of the work, my bowel rumbled and a little bit of poo might actually have...... nevermind. Seriously, a chippy coming in saying "my brother can tile" may have been the better option than this so-called tiler.

Nowadays, I urge customers to get a few quotes, but rather than just pick the cheapest, go with the one that has the most written detail, stating what needs to be done (they have some comeback then). If its too vague, don't just bin the quote, ask for more details (most expensive isn't always the best either, but thats another story). If you don't understand whats been written down, do some research. Ask the tiler again, or at the very least, ask an experienced shop adviser. View the tilers work as he's doing it if possible (not after cuz it may be straight and look lovely, but it might also be dotted and dabbed with blu-tac). If the tiler takes pride in what they do, they'll have nothing to hide and have no problem in having the next customer watching them for a short while if they've requested it (without being too distracting), speaking to them, asking questions on why they're doing this, why they're doing that etc. (tilers, is this a little overkill? two of the local guys wanted to shoot me for suggesting this but is it really that bad?)

I never give out a tilers card. I will let the customers pick up the cards, I'll answer what I can, but always urge that plenty of research is done beforehand whilst reiterating that this is "NOT A RECOMMENDATION, BUT I'VE HEARD THEY'RE GOOD FROM OTHER CUSTOMERS". This is the customers starting point. The rest is up to them. No-one else should be making the decision for them.

Right or wrong you decide, but this is my personal way and my opinion. And so far so good.

 

[John Benton]

The easiest way for customers is to ask if they have done similar work to what they require and ask if they can actually see it. When I finish a job I ask the customer if they would be prepared to let my potential customers look at the work.

Everyone is always after the best price no matter what you are purchasing. I'm actually not up for negotiation on my work. I put my price in for the job and I can justify every penny quoted. If the customer doesn't want to pay the price then that is their choice.

Ultimately, the customer makes the choice as to who does the work for them, although in the case of an active thread, they took the installation services of the designer and supplier, and have paid the price, although it looks as if it is being rectified somewhat. How they come to that decision is entirely their choice.

 

[jobdone]

Im with john the price quoted is the price for the job being under taken. All my quotes detail what is to be under taken and supplied. Recently had a customer question the price for the repair of his failed shower when he was compareing against a texted price. After a chat with the customer he could see that if he allowed the other chap to remove the failed tiles and allow the plaster board to dry out.??? before replacing the tiles it was bound to fail again

 

[Archie69]

When buying a car most people check that it has a recorded service history.
When buying a house you buy what you see; you may get a certificate that woodwork has been treated, that windows have been fitted by a Fensa member, boiler, insulation, damproof, etc etc; but for tiling!
I think generally every building should have a log book/record file that contains details of all work done and the tiler will have to specify what materials have been used and confirm that they have been used correctly to sign off their work.

Totally agree. Most people would not buy an expensive second hand car without a service history, and some kind of backup warrenty, this should be applied to one of the most expensive things we will ever purchase. Our homes.

 

[lawrenso]

I think that Dan is aware of my thoughts on this.

If a tiler goes to quote on a job and accepts the job, then he is saying that he is up to the job and is able to complete it to a professional standard. If he doesn't then it is on his head.

As for the TTA, I would say that it isn't worth the money. From our experience, they are only interested in the annual payment, as when we showed them the quality of work that had been done by one of their members they weren't interested.

Please see my thread which can be found in the Tilers Arms, and I hope that the guy who done this work hasn't ever joined this Forum as he could only ever bring bad with him.

Dan was an absolute star but because of certain unsavoury things happening which we couldn't prove, my wife did not want me to continue the action we were going to take - although I nearly ended up in a fight with the guy a while ago. It still sits bad with me

Oh I - hello again everybody who remembers me

 

[One Day]

I'd ditto the above post's comments.
Personally now, I won't take on new (fresh) work - by that I mean customers who haven't come to me via a personal recommendation of who I've worked for before. Too much risk and hassle with new customers.

If I take a job on, it's to my spec and to be done my way - 100%.
If a customer starts off insisting or even suggesting it should be done any other way, then it's goodnight from me.

Sure, others will say that attitude is no good if you are short of work and competing against idiots.
Well I've been pig-headed and obstinate since I started out and it's worked for me. As I said - I don't take on new (fresh) customers any more.

 

[lawrenso]

Hi Impish,

I couldn't interfere as I was half a continent away when he done the work!! However it is surprising that he is still working in the trade. I am self employed - I have to compete against others for my work - and if I can't do something they are asking for I let them know. No point me wasting their time and getting disgruntled and sacking me and affecting my name. However, if I am working for a client and they ask me to do something beyond my current knowledge, I will inform them of this - and that it will be on best endeavours - however if my work is wrong it won't endanger others lives which is what happened to us, and usually there is a team of testers that will try and break what I have done.

Cheers

Steve