Efflorescence

[Sean Page]

Hi, I had a problem with efflorescence in a BAL superlex wide joint grout back in December 2008. The whole 54m floor area was affected in a new build. It was cold and I'm pretty confident (it was a long while ago) that I would've explained my concerns to the customer at the time but he wanted to be moved in for xmas.

Within a few days it was apparent there was a problem. I suggested that the grout would need to be raked out and re-grouted (at my cost) The customer didn't like this idea because of the mess involved and delay this would cause for his moving date. In the end we settled on scrubbing the floor so I went back and scrubbed the entire floor with a "residue remover" which removed the salts and seemed to resolve the problem.

However last week I got a call out of the blue to tell me that there was still a problem and that "grout dust" is still coming up to the extent that it is being transferred into his carpets.

I'm due to visit him this afternoon and I wondered on fellow tilers thoughts as to whether or not this should be chargeable or should I swallow the time/costs?

 

[brian c]

what colour of grout is it?Did you use a washboy?DID YOU USE DUST SHEETS AS I CANT SEE WHY ITS GETTING ON HIS CARPETS IF YOU FOLLOWED INSTRUCTIONS.I would go and see exactly what the problem is and take some pics,then post on here and im sure you will get help.

Did you overwipe the floor getting grout joints really wet when cleaning up excess grout?

 

[Sean Page]

It was the grey grout. At the time I completed the job the carpets wasn't even in, that has happened in the 13 months since. From the call it appears that the grout is breaking down and allowing dust to be walked around.

I would've used a washboy, but usually keep the floors as dry as poss.

 

[DHTiling]

Effloresence is just salt migration from the substrate or adhesive bed.... i can't see it causing the grout to break down and come out of the joints..

Now you say it was cold..?

This could have affected the way the grout dried and it might simply be a hydration/setting issue and the grout is knackered..

How cold was it..?

 

[Sean Page]

I'm not completely sure how cold, wooly hat weather I'm sure though

The original problem was that the grey grout had a pale blueish layer. This could be scraped off to reveal the grey beneath. A Topps fella came out when I asked their advice. I had been using BAL for years and had never seen anything like this before, he hadn't seen it before either but the tech people said it was probably efflorescence.

What causes hydration problems? Is there any alternative to removing/regrouting

 

[DHTiling]

I have heard that the pst's always say effloresence ..:mad2:

The blue'ish layer sounds like polymers... was the grout super flex..?

 

[Sean Page]

Yes Superflex wide-joint

 

[DHTiling]

What happens is when you are washing off .. excessive wetting can cause the polymers to settle on the grout surface and leave this blueish tinge.... even a door left open whilst washing off can cause shading of the grout ..

You say you removed salts... were these white deposits in every joint ot just patchy.. they can normally just be brushed off and will eventually cease to a certain degree.


But this does not mean that this is the reason for the grout breaking up... Is there any UFH..?

Did you mix to correct ratio.. all this will be asked if you ring tech..

 

[Sean Page]

Its sounding more like polymers then because the deposits had to be scrubbed hard with a residue remover.

No UFH

As for ratios.... again I'm confident I mixed correctly.

My standard working method across a floor of this size would be to divide it into two areas,apply the grout, then using a washboy clean through half the 1st section before applying the grout to the second section and continuing with the washboy across the remaining floor.

Never had a problem with anything like it before or since, but switched to Mapei soon after this job

 

[DHTiling]

OK.. thanks for the info... just another quick question plz..

Did you let the grout set up enough before using the washboy..? washing too early can again cause the shading/patchy look.

 

[Sean Page]

Ask as many questions as you want Dave

I've been scratching my head on this one too. I've tried to go back deep into the memory banks and remember if there was anything out of the ordinary with this job. At the time it was just a normal job. I'd been on the job for a while, completed bathrooms, splashbacks, various other floors etc etc.

This was the main kitchen/dining room/utility area. Nothing unusual apart from this tinge. I do remember I was working late so it was grouted before the other trades came back because of the size of the area that I had closed off for a few days. I may have got on the grout a little too early but I couldn't be sure. I certainly wouldn't usually because IMO that makes the whole finishing process more difficult.

I'm at a loss with it. If it was something I've done, I'd rather know so it doesn't happen again though.

I'm just thinking what can be done to rectify the problem so that the customer is satisfied.

 

[DHTiling]

Sean.. if it was a hydration probem then it would affect the hardness of the grout.. this is if you grouted below 5dgs cels...

I would go look at the job first and if the grout is coming out then call a BAL pst out..

I am not sure who is the pst for your area as the present one has moved jobs i am led to believe.. but they will send someone out.

It is worth doing as it could be a bad grout batch.... and then take it from there...But i deffo would say it isn't effloresence..

 

[Gazzer]

I would say that if it were wooly hat weather while indoors and working then it was far too cold IMO

 

[Sean Page]

This is currently the only pic I have available.... the wooly hat was ALL I was wearing 😳

 

[Rob Z]

Hi Sean, What is the substrate?

 

[brian c]

Re: Efflorescence
permalink

Effloresence is just salt migration from the substrate or adhesive bed.... i can't see it causing the grout to break down and come out of the joints..

Dave thats what i couldnt understand.

 

[Ajax123]

Hi Sean, What is the substrate?

Took the words right out of my keyboard

is there any sign of the tiles delaminating and moving?

 

[jamie B]

be interested to know what happens as I have a similar prob with BAL wide joint at the the mo..please keep us updated!

 

[DHTiling]

Hi Sean, What is the substrate?

Took the words right out of my keyboard

is there any sign of the tiles delaminating and moving?

Seen as no ufh.. then i presume timber of some sort..as super flex grout was used.

 

[Ajax123]

I suppose efflorecence makes some sort of sens in a wide joint grout as it offers a much wider area for the migration of moisture from the substrate or addy bed. the wider it is the faster it will allow the moisture to escape and so the more chance of efflorecence.......as has already been said though this would not cause a cementitious grout to "break down"

 

[Rob Z]

Sean, I was thinking of two things...first, if this is SOG with no vapor barrier, then a constant stream of moisture rising through the slab would show itself in the grout (unless the tile was set over a vapor-blocking sheet membrane).

Also, I would talk to the customer and find out what the cleaning routine is for this installation. I have inspected jobs where the cleaning crew was practically flooding the floor with water and cleaners, and then of course all that water had to go somewhere and then reappear somewhere, usally causing staining of some sort. A common statement that I have heard is "We clean it all the time and no matter what we do this stuff keeps showing up on the surface".:mad2: