Floor Tiles Lifting

[Deleted member 54058]

I have had 30m2 of 600x600 flooring tiles laid after which the grout started lifting. I thought it was simply needing regrouted and the original tiler was too busy to attend so I got another tiler whom said the tiles were boss and needing lifting. I then obtained a second opinion and another tiler said the same and he lifted the tile that was sounded hollow and all the adhesive was stuck to the tile and not to the concrete floor. Please note this is a newly laid floor with underfloor heating and a concrete screed. Can someone tell me what would cause the tiles to be bose and why is all the adhesive sticking to the tile and not the floor? The reason why I am asking is that the original tiler now disagrees with the new tiler.

 

[Dave]

Morning, first question.. was the UFH commissioned before tiling commenced , as in heated and cooled in accordance to BS5385.

 

[Ajax123]

if the adhesive has parted company with the screed and not the tile then it was never properly bonded in the first place. This could be caused by many things or a combination of those things so you need to work systematically. Firstly you need to establish if the floor was a concrete floor or a screeded floor. It cannot be both... then you need to establish what type of concrete or screed it was, then the fun begins...

1. Was the screed tested and confirmed dry using an accurate and appropriate test
2. Was the screed mechanically abraded in line with standard industry guidelines (e.g. CFA and TTA)
3. Cleanliness - Was the screed clean, free from dust and contamination likely to cause a failure of adhesion
4. Was the underfloor heating commissioned correctly and fully
5. Was the screed properly primed using an appropriate primer.
6. Was the adhesive correct and appropriately applied
7. Was the adhesive allowed to properly set before stressing the tiles e.g. trafficking
8. Was the underfloor heating recomissioned correctly and properly after tiling was complete.

Any one or a combination of any of these could lead to this type of issue.

 

[Deleted member 54058]

if the adhesive has parted company with the screed and not the tile then it was never properly bonded in the first place. This could be caused by many things or a combination of those things so you need to work systematically. Firstly you need to establish if the floor was a concrete floor or a screeded floor. It cannot be both... then you need to establish what type of concrete or screed it was, then the fun begins...

1. Was the screed tested and confirmed dry using an accurate and appropriate test
2. Was the screed mechanically abraded in line with standard industry guidelines (e.g. CFA and TTA)
3. Cleanliness - Was the screed clean, free from dust and contamination likely to cause a failure of adhesion
4. Was the underfloor heating commissioned correctly and fully
5. Was the screed properly primed using an appropriate primer.
6. Was the adhesive correct and appropriately applied
7. Was the adhesive allowed to properly set before stressing the tiles e.g. trafficking
8. Was the underfloor heating recomissioned correctly and properly after tiling was complete.

Any one or a combination of any of these could lead to this type of issue.

Thank you very much for the detailed reply.

I can confirm the following:

1. The solum was backfilled and compressed before being certified for the concrete.

2. The screed was supplied by a recognised supplier and certified and the dealt with it's application which included giving the screed a sand as they knew the finished flooring was tiles. This is marked on their invoice.

3. The tiler supplied all materials excluding the tiles and the job looked perfect hence why we paid the tiler.

4. The heating was left off for three weeks and was then slowly applied.

5. A number of months later the grout started breaking and we called the original tiler whom basically avoided coming back.

6. Two other tilers were recommended and a number of the tiles were tapped and you heard they were bose and once one or two were lifted the rest lifted using your fingers only.

7. It was noted in areas that the adhesive was 15mm and the tiler said that was not correct.

8. It was then and only then discovered there was no detra matting laid.

9. Upon speaking to the initial tiler he said the detra was not a requirement albeit we were led to believe the matting was down. He then said the problem was the heating being applied too quickly which once disproved he changed his position to saying a water leak had caused it as he noticed water on top of the tiles when he came back to finish another job.

We have spoken to the screed company and they said this is a common problem if the tiler does not make sure to test before applying any tiles as the screed can appear dry on top but still damp below.

 

[M j tiling]

I have had 30m2 of 600x600 flooring tiles laid after which the grout started lifting. I thought it was simply needing regrouted and the original tiler was too busy to attend so I got another tiler whom said the tiles were boss and needing lifting. I then obtained a second opinion and another tiler said the same and he lifted the tile that was sounded hollow and all the adhesive was stuck to the tile and not to the concrete floor. Please note this is a newly laid floor with underfloor heating and a concrete screed. Can someone tell me what would cause the tiles to be bose and why is all the adhesive sticking to the tile and not the floor? The reason why I am asking is that the original tiler now disagrees with the new tiler.

hi it is possibly a flow screed which is more than likley a handrite screed you need to do a lot of prep and a specific adhesive and grout.or a decoupling mat.

 

[Huddersfield Tiling]

I have had 30m2 of 600x600 flooring tiles laid after which the grout started lifting. I thought it was simply needing regrouted and the original tiler was too busy to attend so I got another tiler whom said the tiles were boss and needing lifting. I then obtained a second opinion and another tiler said the same and he lifted the tile that was sounded hollow and all the adhesive was stuck to the tile and not to the concrete floor. Please note this is a newly laid floor with underfloor heating and a concrete screed. Can someone tell me what would cause the tiles to be bose and why is all the adhesive sticking to the tile and not the floor? The reason why I am asking is that the original tiler now disagrees with the new tiler.

Its a simple case of movement. The tiler you employed did not do one of the following:
Assess and prepare the sub-floor sufficiently, identify the substrate, advise on curing times or use the correct materials in order to fix tiles. Or simply consider it unfit to receive tiles.

 

[Ajax123]

Thank you very much for the detailed reply.

I can confirm the following:

1. The solum was backfilled and compressed before being certified for the concrete.

2. The screed was supplied by a recognised supplier and certified and the dealt with it's application which included giving the screed a sand as they knew the finished flooring was tiles. This is marked on their invoice.

3. The tiler supplied all materials excluding the tiles and the job looked perfect hence why we paid the tiler.

4. The heating was left off for three weeks and was then slowly applied.

5. A number of months later the grout started breaking and we called the original tiler whom basically avoided coming back.

6. Two other tilers were recommended and a number of the tiles were tapped and you heard they were bose and once one or two were lifted the rest lifted using your fingers only.

7. It was noted in areas that the adhesive was 15mm and the tiler said that was not correct.

8. It was then and only then discovered there was no detra matting laid.

9. Upon speaking to the initial tiler he said the detra was not a requirement albeit we were led to believe the matting was down. He then said the problem was the heating being applied too quickly which once disproved he changed his position to saying a water leak had caused it as he noticed water on top of the tiles when he came back to finish another job.

We have spoken to the screed company and they said this is a common problem if the tiler does not make sure to test before applying any tiles as the screed can appear dry on top but still damp below.

No mention of a moisture test. No mention of underfloor heating being commissioned. Screed supplied by recognised supplier who certified it - not sure what this means. Who installed it, who supplied it, what type of screed was it. I agree with the screed company thatvtiles failing us common when simple prep is not done... have you got any pictures of the screed and the underside of the tiles?

 

[Deleted member 54058]

Its a simple case of movement. The tiler you employed did not do one of the following:
Assess and prepare the sub-floor sufficiently, identify the substrate, advise on curing times or use the correct materials in order to fix tiles. Or simply consider it unfit to receive tiles.

Thank you for getting back to me and providing your comments. The screed is a Calcium Sulfate based flowing floor screed. I don't know if he tested the floor before laying the tiles. The same tiler did the lounge 50m2 and no issues but the main difference he used the matting in the lounge.
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No mention of a moisture test. No mention of underfloor heating being commissioned. Screed supplied by recognised supplier who certified it - not sure what this means. Who installed it, who supplied it, what type of screed was it. I agree with the screed company thatvtiles failing us common when simple prep is not done... have you got any pictures of the screed and the underside of the tiles?

Thanks for your comments. The Screed is a Calcium Sulfate based flowing floor screed which was certified by the architect. The company that made the screed supplied and poured it.. Yes I have pictures of both the screed and the tiles that were lifted and shall try and upload them. Thanks again for your input.

 

[Dave]

No mention of a moisture test. No mention of underfloor heating being commissioned. Screed supplied by recognised supplier who certified it - not sure what this means. Who installed it, who supplied it, what type of screed was it. I agree with the screed company thatvtiles failing us common when simple prep is not done... have you got any pictures of the screed and the underside of the tiles?

It wasn’t commissioned first , only after tiling.

 

[Anthony]

He’s not primed the floor prior to using a cement based adhesive. This will cause the reaction you’ve had as the high gypsum content in the screed reacts with cement. priming acts as a barrier between the 2
I use ultra csa (calcium based adhesive) you don’t need to prime with this although I stil give it a 1.3 ratio mix. Then turn the heating on
Keep to sub 15 degrees while tiling. Then after 7 days creep up by 2 degrees per day to desired temp. Doing it like that helps with grout shrinkage. As opposed to starting heating a couple of weeks after floor has been layed

 

[Ajax123]

He’s not primed the floor prior to using a cement based adhesive. This will cause the reaction you’ve had as the high gypsum content in the screed reacts with cement. priming acts as a barrier between the 2
I use ultra csa (calcium based adhesive) you don’t need to prime with this although I stil give it a 1.3 ratio mix. Then turn the heating on
Keep to sub 15 degrees while tiling. Then after 7 days creep up by 2 degrees per day to desired temp. Doing it like that helps with grout shrinkage. As opposed to starting heating a couple of weeks after floor has been layed

We dont even know if its anhydrite screed yet.
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It wasn’t commissioned first , only after tiling.

The

We dont even know if its anhydrite screed yet.

Sorry missed a post...
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There seems to have been a number of fundamental errors here. Heating possibly not commissioned before tiling, no moisture test, possibly not primed correctly, possibly inappropriate adhesive. All of these are really down to the tiler in the respect that he should ask the questions and not deem the floor ready until he is satisfied with the answers.

The use or not of Ditra is technically not relevant. It may be commercially relevant though if it was specified and he included it in his quote.

 

[Deleted member 54058]

It wasn’t commissioned first , only after tiling.

Thanks. Would you lay 600x600 floor tiles (75M2) WITHOUT Matting?

 

[Albert]

Thanks. Would you lay 600x600 floor tiles (75M2) WITHOUT Matting?

Yes

 

[Ajax123]

Thanks. Would you lay 600x600 floor tiles (75M2) WITHOUT Matting?

provided they were not natural stone ten no reason why not. it is not essential although it is not harmful and can offer benefits.