Help ? I need an independant assessor

[silver]

Hi all, I haven't been on here in ages ..apologies for that.....time goes so fast.
But I hope its still possible to ask for some help or advice

In brief, in tandem to a plumbing company I have in the past undertaken the tiling work on two bathrooms.....and one shower room / wc
There have been problems.
The shower room / w/c needed corrective plaster boarding before I could tank & tile ....which when completed resulted in step ladder "judder" on the tray where no cover had been placed ! and a new tray needed then to be fitted before I could start.
Next bathroom ... bath gapping occurred ...no batons supports or even the brackets supplied with the bath where in place under the bath.
Next bathroom after only two months and within two weeks of the other complaint same gapping ...same reason ..their "plumber" (different guy) saw no baton / support of any description and said straight away that was the reason.
Since then, two cracks in my tiling have appeared (it was perfect when I left and had finished it)....first is where the towel rail / rad has been fitted and comes directly from the fitting point (drilled) and travels up. On only one drill point.
The second is exactly over where the plumbers installed a studding to bring the shower area forward and where original meets the new. This was plaster boarded when I came to the job,.
I only dry lined one other wall (window wall) and screw fixed to batons on one and to the " new studding on the shower pipework wall ...
The bath screen is screwed to the new framework through my tiling.
The "offending" walls are plasterboard

The plumber and his "insurer" have decided its a tiling fault ........so in their opinion my tiles have, after I left them perfect
a) Crept up the wall ?
b) Self destructed because I have not put them on right ? None of my tiling has ever been D&D

So here I am after 9 years trading, no complaints or call backs ever, no leaks, no cracks and involvement with this plumber has caused the above.
I need some help and advice as to which way to handle this .....I am hand on heart in belief this is not my tiling at fault. there was no movement in the walls before tiling ......even the plumber said himself to the customer "if the walls were not right he wouldn't have tiled them"
he knows how particular I am.

Can anyone offer any guidance..... this situation is totally alien to me .....I need to defend myself
Is there an independent company who will assess this for me / the customer and provide an impartial report.

Thanks for any help that may come my way

 

[Just Rizzle]

have u public liability insurance sounds like the plumber has and fobbed you off as the patsy if you have get them to asses it

 

[Dougs Third Go]

I'd be asking them (plumbers, insurers) to put pen to paper and state how this is your fault, it'd make imaginative reading I'd guess.

 

[Dave]

The TTA ( The Tile Association ) do independent assessing. It's not cheap though but their statements will stand up in a court of law.

On another note , what makes this insurance guy qualified to inspect tiling ?

If the bath has sank then it's sank , how can that be tiling related .

The towel rad crack , if bet he just pushed the wall plug into the tile body , then tighten the screw creating stress outwards to the tile as the plug expands .

Speak to trade and standards first , then take it from there , this plumbers desperate to cover his butt

 

[silver]

Thanks guys for your help and responses.... You are echoing everything I have said to the customer ...and he in fact assured me he relayed initially all this to the plumber and then to the "insurance assessor" who came out. But to no avail .....
I am quite gutted given my flawless record to date apart from the dealings with this company. I have before and after pics of every job I have done in 9 years (apart from a couple when battery was dead in the camera on arrival !)...for protection for me and my customer and for me from a "pride in my work" point of view.
I have spoken also with legal advisory people from my insurance (liability & home)
I am seeking to pay for an independent assessor and will stand by their report.
I am hoping to source three independents and let the customer choose which one he uses.
I will pay for this upfront and then if it goes to court and it goes in my favour I believe I can claim this back.
In the meantime I will question the qualifications of the insurance guy they sent out and ask for exact details that indicate it is a tiling issue (if they don't try to put this in) I am expecting a copy of their report apparently this coming week.
If it was a tiling issue I would hold up my hands and replace the necessary ....potentially >15 tiles in two columns..... but I believe the portioned wall will repeat the same result due to the frame they put in ......and then be back to step one.
The rad I believe is just clumsiness from the same guy who created the problems on the other jobs I have done with them.
I will never be involved with them again .....
Thanks again chaps ... your responses have helped.

 

[Dave]

Hey anytime but please do report back to this thread with any news. I'm really intrigued by their report.


Dave.

 

[silver]

do I have to be a member of tta to request an assessment ?

 

[Dave]

do I have to be a member of tta to request an assessment ?

Not at all know but it is cheaper for TTA members.

 

[silver]

Thank you Dave .

 

[Dan]

I've moved this thread to the TilersForums Arms. So the plumber and potential customers have less chance of seeing it.

I'd also start communicating by email so it's documented, and not accept reasons without them showing how they arrived at such accusations and reasoning as to why it's your fault.

As Dave says the bath sinking isn't your issue. If your tiles aren't pushing it down how can anybody blame the tiling?!

 

[silver]

Thanks Dan.
I am not a member of the Tilers Forum Arms .....
So will not be able to update it accordingly...
Can I please become a member Please email me so I can get your reply.
Thank you for your help with this.

 

[silver]

I have access Dan...sorry to have asked that last question !

 

[Dan]

Didn't you get the notification? I'd added you already before moving it. You're in the Arms.

Bars over there, toilets over there, she's the local bike, avoid on less than 8 pints, pool table is winner stays on and they get really fussy about that so don't whack a quid down thinking you and your mate can play without first owning the table by way of win.

Other than that no rules. Just don't swear tooooo much.

 

[Ajax123]

Do not admit liability, speak to your ow PL insurers if you have one. Try Neil Beningfield of Beningfield associates. I know he has helped a few tilers on here before and is really good at this type of thing. Neil Beningfield I also know him personally so am happy to recommend him. Might be more cost effective and probably better quality litigation advice than the TTA. He is also a member of the panel of exert witnesses so is used to dealing with court type stuff.

 

[silver]

LOL ! thanks Dan ... think I will like this Pub !!

Thanks for that Alan,
I spoke with my Liability Insurance which is AXA via Gothic Insurance brokers. Also DAS via my home and contents policy. Whilst they did give me advice and positive conversation. They did not confirm if either of my policy/s would cover this ?.....
I have third party Liability insurance with my business.... which has been the same since day one of me starting the business Dec 2006.
To cover me for accidental damage in customers homes, cover of indemnity £1000,000
I was under the impression this is all I would need for my business ... in the event of me having an accident and causing damage ...(non to date)
As I stand by my work quality I would never have envisaged this situation.

The DAS advisor asked me if I had legal expenses cover .....
I guess this is something I have not included in my AXA liability policy ?

I am a little confused and albeit perhaps nieave here ..If I had insurance that covered what I am seeing as the problem (What lies behind the plaster boarded wall done before my arrival ....and a heavy handed radiator installation done after my departure)....... and the plumber expects me to claim on it as a tiling issue ..... ?.That's not including the bath sinking ....
I cant see other than I would apparently have insurance to cover my customers against "dodgy work" ...someone elses dodgy work ?..... who I may happen to work adjacent on a job with.
Their work that my work has gone over ....as its impossible to see behind the plasterboard they had put on and impossible to stand over someone drilling into my tiling afterwards....

pics
After the problem arose and I was contacted I referred to my before / after pics.... I have blown up this second pic and can see no actual fixings holding this frame in place .....Crikey !! and have come to the conclusion that perhaps the pipe work was aiding rigidity when I boarded the front of it. .......hence it never moved.
Valve slot was at the request of the plumber instead of three separate holes ...to help should a valve issue arise.
This is where they joined new studding / board to the existing wall to extend it ...yep showing normal screws used in their boarding..... and original D&D tiles some 30 years ago !!..... I boarded the "shower side" using drywall screws this illustrates two individuals work IMO... nothing moved during me doing this.

The section was tanked .... I tank every single bathroom I do


The crack in my tiling has appeared on this vertical plaster board to existing wall join.
My feeling having now looked at the pics again and again is ...that this frame is not actually totally secure ... and after fixing the shower screen through tiling close but not onto this end stud ..... the weight in conjunction to use of the screen has "flexed / moved" this frame sufficient to cause this crack ... it wouldn't take much.
There was certainly no crack when I left for the plumber to make their final installation of the new suite.

To try and simulate the problem .....If a car was taken into a body shop already primed to spray from elsewhere.....and all looked right to the guy who was finish spraying it ...and it was sprayed accordingly and correctly.....and then rust popped through two months later.
Who would be approached ....the finisher ? ... or the guy who prepped it under the primer and primed it ?
If this makes sense ??

I will hold that contact for Neil and will be giving him a call. Thanks again Alan.
.
Sorry for the very long post .... its already grinding on me.

 

[White Room]

You should try and overboard the existing wall to stud, to take up any variation of movement between the different surfaces.

 

[silver]

Thanks Whitebeam
Okay ... I see what you are saying....and believe me ...its logged in .....I appreciate your comment....exactly as per floor substrates con > timber etc....this whole matter has made me question everything ...twice .. .....however, if I am right ...a correctly and rigidly fixed frame shouldn't actually move .... I understand you are referring to expansion and contraction ...they are both plasterboard studded walls.... I don't believe I am looking at an expansion issue...but stand to be corrected......I accept one has come after the other.....but there should be no movement of the frame away from the wall it is intended to be fixed to.... and I think this is whats happened.
because..........
I am now looking at the screw locations on their board/s .... and then the similar frame work on the front shower wall....the front frame.
If they haven't screwed this part of the frame (two uprights) sufficiently to the existing wall surface/s behind their plasterboard .....and my guess now is they haven't as they would need to drill through the old tiles.... ... the corner one especially...
Then I believe theres a huge potential for it to flex at the corner ....sufficient to crack the tiles in the manner I am seeing

The crack has not opened like you would expect from expansion it has cracked very very slightly concave when you catch the light on it, looking face on from the front ....as if the corner where the screen is has been pulled / flexed into the bathroom ...which for me stacks up.... or do I have it wrong ?

 

[andy8758]

Hi Silver, sorry to hear about your woes. But, there is a salutary lesson here for all of us.

Professional problems happen from time to time, no matter how thorough and skilled you are in your work. When the rubbish hits the fan, you will find the world a very lonely place. You know you are in the right. You know you did a good job. But the criticism hits you to the core, you feel suddenly very insecure, you struggle to concentrate on anything else whilst you have that problem. It will affect you, your partner, and your family life. It can become an increasing problem, as you are liable to make more mistakes when worried about the outcome, and tend to snap at family and friends over any little problem.

You need 2 things here.

First off you need a friend who has faced up to problems like this and got through it. A friend you can talk to about the problem, and give you objective support. This forum can provide you with that support. Especially those guys who have been in the trade for a very long time. You have done the right thing posting this here (and thank you Dan for bringing it to the Tilers Arms to keep it private).

Second you need a powerful sponsor - in this case the TTA is something you, me and everyone else here in the tiling business should subscribe to. They are the respected, professional face of the tiling trade. You may have to pay for the additional help (independent assessor) but the collective knowledge and experience such an organisation can maintain will help many of us reduce the times that such problems arise.

Maybe we need to join if not already members. The next alleged tiling problem could be mine.

And finally for Silver. Good luck. Keep us posted. We are rooting for you.

 

[silver]

Hi Andy,
Your words could not be more spot on mate ... and alone make re assuring reading Thank you.....especially from a personal view. I am lucky to already have the support of a good partner....she knows after watching me work in our home and after her talking to my past customers who have become friends, how I will not take kindly to a slant on my work.
I am open and honest as the days long... I complete every job as if it is in my own home and it must be right in my mind to complete before I start it ( I walk away from many) and right for me before I pass it back to the customer. This ethic has never failed me to date. I am not young in years I am 52 and I take great pride in what I do. Hence the before and after pics ...apart from helping against those "who try to ask for more" I have had only one case in 9 years with a ding in a tap spout the lady of the house brought to my attention ...after asking if she would accept what my before and after pics revealed....I checked them on the Pc and could blow them up.....on my pics the ding was there with the customer stood beside me with only me the customer and my camera in the kitchen ... I had not even brought in my floor and worktop / unit covers. They had taken off the tiles ....but had "not even caught the spout when doing it" ....so ....I sent theme a blown up copy by email .....It was a very quiet day all the next day when I finished the job....To say the husband was embarrassed is an understatement.
Yes you are right sleepless nights have been involved. I do however come back to the same conclusions and thinking. In my mind the rad wall was good to tile and in good faith I took it that the plumbers had attached the frame correctly to avoid any future movement.

I am obviously openly willing for it to proved otherwise. I realise to do this tiles will have to be removed. I will stand by what this reveals and accept only responsibility for any error in my work or judgement. ....and cover the cost and correction naturally.
I have taken many hours of searching my mind and I do believe I may have a way to work with this. The customer being happy with me and my work is paramount from every angle .... I have never and I mean never had a complaint before my involvement with this plumbing company. Three jobs ... three sets of problems I will need to speak to the customer with my suggestion of course before I reply to their insurance.
I am out today. But later will lay the basics of my potential approach to this for you all to see. I would welcome any comments. Good or bad.
I am thoroughly grateful for the support members have shown so far. It is very re assuring and is a massive help .....as Andy says .....it does make you question yourself after the event ... and does mess with your head.
We all learn on every job .... if I have made a mistake I will sort it. I am not a builder. So instead of trying to prove with building "logic"what the frame should have been done like I aim to remove tiles and see what lies behind. What cant speak cant lie. Will post more later today.
Thanks guys.

 

[silver]

Hi Doug ... I have looked back at my other pics .....overboarding the two sections would not have been possible due to the door frame / hinges etc....
It did actually cross my mind at the time ... and I did consider crack mat ...perhaps this may have helped ? ..I should have mentioned this immediately yesterday ... but to be honest it was late and my head was a tad scrambled with it all....however, at the starting point I stuck with the belief that the frame should not move and all will be well. If it gets to the point of me removing my tiles to remove their plaster board to reveal their "new frame" and its actual fixings. If its secured ... Its my fault ... if there is zero fixings I don't feel it is correct for me to accept responsibility.

 

[swanman]

looks good
let them prove it

 

[silver]

Nothing to report yet .... was told by customer he would be emailing me the plumbers insurers report today.
Whether that means I was going to get a copy or he is just forwarding it on ???

Just another point.... the customer and the plumber met at a "business network" gathering.
The customer runs a car service / maintenance garage and services the vehicles from the plumbing company.
His actual words to me were ... I don't want to p*ss the plumbers off as we do a fair chunck of £££ with them.
Whether that means they will "between them lean to stuff me " ???? but its worth noting.
Will update soon as I know more.

 

[Dan]

It doesn't change facts. No matter how close they are together.

That does explain why they're trying to blame you then.

So stick to your guns.

 

[SJPurdy]

I have tiled many such boxed/built out wall constructions without any problem (as far as I know) but it does rely on the timber framework being rigid. To achieve rigidity in an example like this the stud fixed to the existing wall corner must be securely fixed all the way up; all the other studs must be firmly secured top and bottom and there should be (tight, square edged) noggins between the studs to stop the centre (middle height) section flexing. To check on recommendations for a tiled plaster board wall I suggest you visit the British Gypsum web site which hopefully still gives a lot of useful info in its "white book" which can be downloaded (it was last time I checked).
In the picture of the studwork the stud on the right should also be fixed firmly to the right hand wall (but I don't think you have a problem in this corner so it probably was).
In the picture of the boarded wall I cant see any screws into the 2nd stud from the corner. If none where added then the bath screen has been attached to a section of board that is bridging between the corner and the third stud! I can see that there is a much greater spacing between screws on this wall than there is on the (earlier better fixed) piece of board around the corner - I don't know what the spacing spec should be but I think there should be more.
I hope that might be of help when looking over your pics ( a lesson for everyone to take them). good look with defending your tiling. Steve

 

[Dan]

Thanks for posting!

I take it you're a pretty good plasterer too?! You seem to know your stuff.

What ever happened with this @silver?