Help ? I need an independant assessor

[White Room]

You should try and overboard the existing wall to stud, to take up any variation of movement between the different surfaces.

 

[silver]

Thanks Whitebeam
Okay ... I see what you are saying....and believe me ...its logged in .....I appreciate your comment....exactly as per floor substrates con > timber etc....this whole matter has made me question everything ...twice .. .....however, if I am right ...a correctly and rigidly fixed frame shouldn't actually move .... I understand you are referring to expansion and contraction ...they are both plasterboard studded walls.... I don't believe I am looking at an expansion issue...but stand to be corrected......I accept one has come after the other.....but there should be no movement of the frame away from the wall it is intended to be fixed to.... and I think this is whats happened.
because..........
I am now looking at the screw locations on their board/s .... and then the similar frame work on the front shower wall....the front frame.
If they haven't screwed this part of the frame (two uprights) sufficiently to the existing wall surface/s behind their plasterboard .....and my guess now is they haven't as they would need to drill through the old tiles.... ... the corner one especially...
Then I believe theres a huge potential for it to flex at the corner ....sufficient to crack the tiles in the manner I am seeing

The crack has not opened like you would expect from expansion it has cracked very very slightly concave when you catch the light on it, looking face on from the front ....as if the corner where the screen is has been pulled / flexed into the bathroom ...which for me stacks up.... or do I have it wrong ?

 

[andy8758]

Hi Silver, sorry to hear about your woes. But, there is a salutary lesson here for all of us.

Professional problems happen from time to time, no matter how thorough and skilled you are in your work. When the rubbish hits the fan, you will find the world a very lonely place. You know you are in the right. You know you did a good job. But the criticism hits you to the core, you feel suddenly very insecure, you struggle to concentrate on anything else whilst you have that problem. It will affect you, your partner, and your family life. It can become an increasing problem, as you are liable to make more mistakes when worried about the outcome, and tend to snap at family and friends over any little problem.

You need 2 things here.

First off you need a friend who has faced up to problems like this and got through it. A friend you can talk to about the problem, and give you objective support. This forum can provide you with that support. Especially those guys who have been in the trade for a very long time. You have done the right thing posting this here (and thank you Dan for bringing it to the Tilers Arms to keep it private).

Second you need a powerful sponsor - in this case the TTA is something you, me and everyone else here in the tiling business should subscribe to. They are the respected, professional face of the tiling trade. You may have to pay for the additional help (independent assessor) but the collective knowledge and experience such an organisation can maintain will help many of us reduce the times that such problems arise.

Maybe we need to join if not already members. The next alleged tiling problem could be mine.

And finally for Silver. Good luck. Keep us posted. We are rooting for you.

 

[silver]

Hi Andy,
Your words could not be more spot on mate ... and alone make re assuring reading Thank you.....especially from a personal view. I am lucky to already have the support of a good partner....she knows after watching me work in our home and after her talking to my past customers who have become friends, how I will not take kindly to a slant on my work.
I am open and honest as the days long... I complete every job as if it is in my own home and it must be right in my mind to complete before I start it ( I walk away from many) and right for me before I pass it back to the customer. This ethic has never failed me to date. I am not young in years I am 52 and I take great pride in what I do. Hence the before and after pics ...apart from helping against those "who try to ask for more" I have had only one case in 9 years with a ding in a tap spout the lady of the house brought to my attention ...after asking if she would accept what my before and after pics revealed....I checked them on the Pc and could blow them up.....on my pics the ding was there with the customer stood beside me with only me the customer and my camera in the kitchen ... I had not even brought in my floor and worktop / unit covers. They had taken off the tiles ....but had "not even caught the spout when doing it" ....so ....I sent theme a blown up copy by email .....It was a very quiet day all the next day when I finished the job....To say the husband was embarrassed is an understatement.
Yes you are right sleepless nights have been involved. I do however come back to the same conclusions and thinking. In my mind the rad wall was good to tile and in good faith I took it that the plumbers had attached the frame correctly to avoid any future movement.

I am obviously openly willing for it to proved otherwise. I realise to do this tiles will have to be removed. I will stand by what this reveals and accept only responsibility for any error in my work or judgement. ....and cover the cost and correction naturally.
I have taken many hours of searching my mind and I do believe I may have a way to work with this. The customer being happy with me and my work is paramount from every angle .... I have never and I mean never had a complaint before my involvement with this plumbing company. Three jobs ... three sets of problems I will need to speak to the customer with my suggestion of course before I reply to their insurance.
I am out today. But later will lay the basics of my potential approach to this for you all to see. I would welcome any comments. Good or bad.
I am thoroughly grateful for the support members have shown so far. It is very re assuring and is a massive help .....as Andy says .....it does make you question yourself after the event ... and does mess with your head.
We all learn on every job .... if I have made a mistake I will sort it. I am not a builder. So instead of trying to prove with building "logic"what the frame should have been done like I aim to remove tiles and see what lies behind. What cant speak cant lie. Will post more later today.
Thanks guys.

 

[silver]

Hi Doug ... I have looked back at my other pics .....overboarding the two sections would not have been possible due to the door frame / hinges etc....
It did actually cross my mind at the time ... and I did consider crack mat ...perhaps this may have helped ? ..I should have mentioned this immediately yesterday ... but to be honest it was late and my head was a tad scrambled with it all....however, at the starting point I stuck with the belief that the frame should not move and all will be well. If it gets to the point of me removing my tiles to remove their plaster board to reveal their "new frame" and its actual fixings. If its secured ... Its my fault ... if there is zero fixings I don't feel it is correct for me to accept responsibility.

 

[swanman]

looks good
let them prove it

 

[silver]

Nothing to report yet .... was told by customer he would be emailing me the plumbers insurers report today.
Whether that means I was going to get a copy or he is just forwarding it on ???

Just another point.... the customer and the plumber met at a "business network" gathering.
The customer runs a car service / maintenance garage and services the vehicles from the plumbing company.
His actual words to me were ... I don't want to p*ss the plumbers off as we do a fair chunck of £££ with them.
Whether that means they will "between them lean to stuff me " ???? but its worth noting.
Will update soon as I know more.

 

[Dan]

It doesn't change facts. No matter how close they are together.

That does explain why they're trying to blame you then.

So stick to your guns.

 

[SJPurdy]

I have tiled many such boxed/built out wall constructions without any problem (as far as I know) but it does rely on the timber framework being rigid. To achieve rigidity in an example like this the stud fixed to the existing wall corner must be securely fixed all the way up; all the other studs must be firmly secured top and bottom and there should be (tight, square edged) noggins between the studs to stop the centre (middle height) section flexing. To check on recommendations for a tiled plaster board wall I suggest you visit the British Gypsum web site which hopefully still gives a lot of useful info in its "white book" which can be downloaded (it was last time I checked).
In the picture of the studwork the stud on the right should also be fixed firmly to the right hand wall (but I don't think you have a problem in this corner so it probably was).
In the picture of the boarded wall I cant see any screws into the 2nd stud from the corner. If none where added then the bath screen has been attached to a section of board that is bridging between the corner and the third stud! I can see that there is a much greater spacing between screws on this wall than there is on the (earlier better fixed) piece of board around the corner - I don't know what the spacing spec should be but I think there should be more.
I hope that might be of help when looking over your pics ( a lesson for everyone to take them). good look with defending your tiling. Steve

 

[Dan]

Thanks for posting!

I take it you're a pretty good plasterer too?! You seem to know your stuff.

What ever happened with this @silver?

 

[silver]

Thanks Steve, yep you words back up my thoughts exactly.
I have still to hear from either the customer or the Plumber or even see their insurers report as I was promised. But anything could happen yet ....
The customers last comment was to say he would have to go through trading standards if I don't offer to "replace the cracked tiles" ... no matter who pays (guess he was going to pay himself to avoid upsetting his business associate plumber friend ?)
So I told him that I thoroughly understood and if it helps him ?? ....I offered him more copies of my before and after pics of this job should he need them and also pics of the "other issues" on two other jobs I have had with the plumbers and applicable customers addresses too .
So ... its still a watch this space
Thanks guys for your help and support.

 

[Dan]

Thanks Steve, yep you words back up my thoughts exactly.
I have still to hear from either the customer or the Plumber or even see their insurers report as I was promised. But anything could happen yet ....
The customers last comment was to say he would have to go through trading standards if I don't offer to "replace the cracked tiles" ... no matter who pays (guess he was going to pay himself to avoid upsetting his business associate plumber friend ?)
So I told him that I thoroughly understood and if it helps him ?? ....I offered him more copies of my before and after pics of this job should he need them and also pics of the "other issues" on two other jobs I have had with the plumbers and applicable customers addresses too .
So ... its still a watch this space
Thanks guys for your help and support.

Don't hand out other customers addresses without their knowledge or acceptance first.
That could breach Data Protection Act.
Give them a bell if needs be and explain your situation.

 

[silver]

Thanks Dan .... they are already informed and on stand by if needs be .... and had no hesitation in speaking up for me .... and down for them

 

[silver]

UPDATE ...finally
I have received the message via a txt (from the plumber) ....
The tiler, who replaced the tiles has said the walls should have been secured better before you tiled it. It was the same on the other side (he means opposite wall). Ive got to say I've been very disappointed with the way you handled this this job and could of been resolved earlier if you had been willing to investigate the issues instead of trying to pass the blame onto us. Which we have now proved wasn't our fault at all.

This does confuse me somewhat as .....
A) They built the adjoining wall adjacent to the original ...frame and plaster boarded it ...so how am I responsible for securing that ?
B) The other wall was tiled for 30 years prior to tile removal and then me re tiling it. It was a baton / board wall and no movement when I tiled it..... or I wouldn't have.

So I think this is the end to it .... hes fixed it ..... but to the customer .....passed the blame onto me ....
In my mind if he hasn't taken off the board from the "built frame wall" ...this will go again in the very near future
It has no way of being forced inwards ... only outwards via leverage from the shower screen ....so if this hasn't been further fixed ...??
we will see.
At least the customer hasn't pissed his plumber off who gives him his vans to service ! ...which was his main worry for tackling him about it.....oh well.

Thanks for your help and support guys ...you really helped me stick to my guns.... and get through it.

It does however, make you worry about working in tandem again with others.

 

[p4ulo]

Phew, thank God its done and dusted.
Plumber sounds like a bit of a ~@%$ cos as you say he built the framework and boarded it, so how would you know it wasn't fixed properly??
I wouldn't worry about working in tandem again, just make sure you check what work they've done before fixing over the top of it.
Deffo, that wall they built is too weedy, and should've been regularly fixed to original wall, with noggins too to make is sound.
Oh well.....