Help! Tilers bodged my shower room!!

[Pernah]

Over to the pro's...

The tiler; professional tiler, second to none with excellent reputation and quality workmanship highly recommended by owner of Tile shop I purchased tiles from.

The job; to tile shower area and half hight both walls to end leaving 15cm from floor for vinyl to have wet room floor.

The work; came home from work to find tiler had not gone the full length of the wall and cut trim and tile short when he came to built in units, phoned him up and he agreed for trim to be pulled out and small tiles to be taken off so he can cut tiles to go around the unit to end of wall - aving pulled of the short cut tile I find dot and dab, thought this was ok as not in shower area then checked to find all tiles dot and dabbed and he also forgot to fit tile to vinyl capping strip at bottom!!

The problem; all the tiles except 2 to finish off above unit have been fixed to wall, the tile capping strip not fitted and grouting waiting to be done - tiler said he's always done this way and not problem as he used waterproof adhesive and tiles will not fall off as better suction on dot dab than full bed, he further explained the grout is what makes the shower walls waterproof not the adhesive behind it and willing to give a 10 year guanratee - in regards the tile vinyl capping strip, tiler denies being told about them even though I showed them before he started and he also bought 12mm trim to use for 8mm thick tiles instead of the 8mm I was advised to be used by store, tiler now saying he wants more money to remove adhesive from behind tiles at bottom to slip in tile vinyl capping strip when I think he shouldn't be paid at all for doing dot and dab on shower area - pointed out instructions on adhesive bag and BS, which he said no-one follows anyway and he's not had a problem or complaints since he's been tiling 12 years ago.

The solution; personally I want all the shower area tiles off and bonded walls to be primed and full covered in bed of waterproof adhesive but this will result in broken tiles; tiler said he does grouting twice to ensure it goes right tp the back as I pointed out risk of cracking or sinking due to voids behind tiles; tiler says he can slip some adhesive behind tiles a bottom and push in trim, which I think would not be watertight as adhesive will get pushed up into voids and risk of water/steam rising behind tiles and causing damage over time...

I've not paid yet and the job was overall 10m2 using 50 x 20 tiles and he claims to have used 2.5 bags of 10kg adhesive and demanding payments in full of £*** - what should I do as I can't afford to risk poor work with 3 kids and shower room mainly for disabled family member, should I -

a) let him finish off and pay in full
b) let him finish off and pay less
c) make him walk and not pay penny
d) get him to take off all tiles and pay for any damaged and redo whole job

Any views, opinions, advice would be greatly appreciated!

 

[White Room]

Hi and welcome....big post for this time in the morning but dot and dabbing is not acceptable and grout is water resistant not waterproof.

You will get many replies today with the same advise.

 

[cam_low]

In short Do not pay a penny. make him pay for the tiles too. Unlikely he will do that. You do not dot and dab tiles full stop. The price seems quite low for what a pro would charge so I'm assuming with greatest respect you've paid peanuts and got a monkey.

im just off to bed now, working the weekend however the lads and lasses on here will add to this soon or in the morning.

ps don't make him do he job again. Sounds like he doesn't own any trowels. Get a real tiler in!

 

[Andy Allen]

as above don't pay a penny, give him the option to remove and re-tile correctly at his own expense, which I don't think he will do, or get someone in to do the job right, and sue him for you cost's, I would be having a word with the tile shop too, as there the one's that highly recommended this muppet..

 

[Gazzer]

Over to the pro's...

The tiler; professional tiler, second to none with excellent reputation and quality workmanship highly recommended by owner of Tile shop I purchased tiles from.

Sounds exactly like what a local store said to another client of mine about the tiler they recommended....So here I am sorting the whole mess out :mad2:.

Adhesive is not water proof, it can be water resistant.
Grout in general is not water proof but Epoxy grout will be.
Grout that is stated to be water resistant is good enough and is the normal practice.
Dot and dab is not an approved method and I dont think any adhesive manufacturer recommends it.
Being given any guarantee is worth nothing if he doesn't uphold it when the time comes.
Real tilers do work to BS .
Slipping the captile vinyl trim in after screams bodge !!!!
Is the 12mm trim used flush with the tile ??

Better suction ????? What is better than a full solid bed of adhesive?

A classic case of the shop being friends with the "tiler" and passing work on.

 

[Del W]

Cant really add to the answers given. What hes done is wrong,wrong,wrong.

 

[DHTiling]

Looks like he has not done a vinyl to tile before...let alone his tiling method..

 

[Gazzer]

Another so called tiler in my area doing it wrong. Ok so i get some work sorting it out but most of the time it needs ripping out and starting again.....good for me but not the customer. I am fed up with the client thinking i have a magic wand and that it wont take long and tiles can be saved etc.......ok calm down!......need food

 

[Time's Ran Out]

Simple - take it up with the Tile Shop - they recommended him!

 

[Pernah]

Simple - take it up with the Tile Shop - they recommended him!

Thanks all for replies - and feels like I'm not on my own and have someones support!!

You're probably right tiler will not pay for tiles to be replaced if broken when being taken off, only way I can think of getting compensation is by going through Trading Standards and small claims court.

Took up issue with Tile Shop initially by sending text the evening I discovered what tiler had done and here's his response over several texts, which he carried on sending when I agreed the tiler puts in a claim against me for non-payment...

Tilers job is second to none. He doesn't take shortcuts... and I have used him on more than a dozen bathrooms in the last year inc my own and my brothers and two of my in-laws and 3 close relatives... all very pleased with work. Those tiles won't come off easily once set. Talked to other top rate tilers... there no problem with dabbing on walls and often gives better contact... spreading bed with trowel can often give less suction... one tiler evidenced this using sheet of plain glass to demonstrate. The bag of adhesive relates to floor use. It is floor tile adhesive after all. Don't be to hard on tiler. Btw... i have 2 wks ago tiled my bro's hse... used dabbing for better suction than thin bed, also allowed me to compensate for uneven wall.

I recommended tiler because he has done over a dozen bathrooms for me. You r the only customer who has complained about his workmanship. The tiles will not drop off. I can't really say any more than that. I'll continue to use tiler because I have full confidence in his workmanship. If it helps I will provide replacement tiles at cost. May not be much but maybe it'll assist... though there is no liability on me for recommending him.

Also never realised capping had anything to do with the room tiler was tiling, hence made no mention of it when passing on job, its something we have not done before so bit of a misunderstanding/lack of clarification. Tiler has done tiling for 12 years and he used to work for Dolphin B4 they went under. Regardless what u read... those tiles will not come off. Did u knw that even if u bedded tile and grout cracked the tiles will fall off? It is the grout which prevents water ingress. The work is guaranteed and unless the tiling is shabby and all over the place tiler needs payment. U need sort out btwn u 2 what is figure suits uboth for work to be finished otherwise he actually has a claim against you. Bottom line: tiles wont drop off. Btw I have tiled ALL the bays in my shop.. guess what? ALL dotted and dabbed becuz walls not 100%... even on plasterboard. We are not stupid rgdlss what u read on net. U r trying to 'teach yr grandmother t suck eggs'... have u tiled??

Tilers too much of a gentleman to make a claim. But tell you what... let him take off the tiles and leave them on side and don't pay him... that would be fair. You have had woek done... maybe not to your satisfaction in which case negotiate reduction. Are the tiles poorly laid? Tiler doesnt use tub adhesive... which all tilers on the net r happy to use... the powder adhesive sticks on for good! And is far superior in every way to tub... but u r ignoring that. Also a bag does 5mtrs... he has used more than 2 bags on yours... so dont think he is scrimping. When the tiles r still on after 5 years... will u say 'Tiler was right... they haven't dropped off.. I'll pay him? No... you'll be pleased that u had done for nothing. If your conscious sllows you not to pay tiler anything.... fine... he's not going to threaten or knock on yr door. He's not like that. The universe has a way of paying us all back eventually one way or another for ou misdeeds.

Ps... I dont know why u r txting me.. I only tried to help the situation. You tell me u dont want to pay him and that he has lost a day and £30 in adhesive as well. No more my business... i am not tilers manager... nor do i employ him... he does work for me atan agreed rate. He work for himself.

The above is more or less word for word from a series of messages he sent, which I replied on couple - I'm sure you can imagine I'm fuming and thought this tiler was fairly priced as had 2 other quotes one for £XX day rate (1.5 days - £ XX) and another £XX p/mtr - both full time tilers but thought I'd go with higher priced tiler from Tile Shop expecting better job!! Trying to keep cool and highly appreciate all your comments - gives me confidence in knowing what is right/wrong and hopefully this post serves a purpose/advice for those who find themselves in a similar situation. Worst thing is if grouting had been done I wouldn't have known any better and pleased with end result, except tile capping strip but could get round that by scraping out bits of adhesive from dabs and securing with adhesive when coving and vinyl being fitted...

 

[Pernah]

 

[Time's Ran Out]

Although I cannot agree with his spot fixing of the tiles, this thread seems to me to be a break down in communications. From the photos posted I get the impression of a capable tiler doing an ok looking job.

 

[Pernah]

Although I cannot agree with his spot fixing of the tiles, this thread seems to me to be a break down in communications. From the photos posted I get the impression of a capable tiler doing an ok looking job.

Thanks John - and this is where I'm stuck! If I never saw the spot fixing/dot dabbing and he'd grouted tiles, the finished look would've been perfectly acceptable but now knowing tiles dot and dabbed do I let him finish off or get tiles taken off and redone with with extra cost of replacing damaged tiles at thirty pound square metre?

Tiler said he does double grouting to make sure it is filled to back, which I'm sure he wouldn't have if no-one questioned his work or watched him do it... also I suppose easier to get the good levelling he has with d'n'b than would've been if he done properly, which why he took the d'n'b method -honestly, how many tilers would make this decision to keep job simple and customer happy, especially where most customers probably not even aware correct method of fixing tiles.

I had redrow aapartment where bottomg 2 rows of tiles came off after 4 years and had been d'n'b and yesterday my brothers whole shower came apart as water had been seeping through silicone and gone through wall and floor into neighbouring rooms again tiles d'n'b - i was paying XX for job and one tiler said this is peanuts should i pay him and live with risk associated with d'n'b?

 

[Time's Ran Out]

The cost of the peanuts is not really the issue! You want a good job done for your hard earned money and aesthetically this looks a good job IMHO. However you obviously have issues with his and previous dot and dab method of fixing tiles. It's not a method of fixing I'd use however it is done by some and indeed when I first started sand and cement fixing is completed with this method (pads). There is a British Standard for the amount of contact reference coverage on the back of a tile to wall. It is often difficult with large format tiles as you have with a brick bond pattern to get then flat (as tiles can be bowed) and again from your photos his setting out and finish look good.
Where you go from here is your choice - I'd consider a) pay him and let him finished.
Note : my previous post was sent before reading your reply and only looking at the photos. But it would remain the same.
Hope you get it resolved to your satisfaction.

 

[Andy Allen]

double grouting....??? never heard or seen such a thing..

 

[Diggy]

there no problem with dabbing on walls and often gives better contact... spreading bed with trowel can often give less suction.

.....Sloblox , try drilling them.


Tiler said he does double grouting to make sure it is filled to back


.......even more sloblox .

As TJ says above , D n D is from a time gone by , which is why we now have such a variety of trowels to cope with the varying formats of tiles we have to use these days.

Is dot and dab fixing OK for tiles?

Diggy

 

[Pernah]

Although I cannot agree with his spot fixing of the tiles, this thread seems to me to be a break down in communications. From the photos posted I get the impression of a capable tiler doing an ok looking job.

Reading between the lines in your reply above... break down in communications - tiler should've picked up uneven walls when first looking at job? tiler should've explained he was going to d'n'd tiles instead of full bed followed by double grouting? tiler should've asked what the plastic material is that i showed him and left with all other materials for him to work with? tiler should asked where to finish off tiles if he couldn't remember instead of guessing, cutting trim and tile short? tiler not explaining he going to do 10 m2 tiling in 9 hours with 2 hours grouting to follow when originally explained 2 full days (1 being 8-9 hrs) work?

Where's the break down in communication? Maybe I missed something?

You seem to be happy with the progress being made to a good finish, compare this to a house where the foundations laid and half house built upwards before you find out foundations not done to reg (assume builder used own inspector which he has good relationship and got passed feeing fee's) would you continue to have rest of house built and pay builder knowing you're living in house with incorrect foundations?

Above example may be extreme but the message for any tradesman is explain to customer what you're doing and explain anything you're not happy about before doing job rather finding yourself in position where customer not happy, pointing out faults, jeopordising relationship and future custom, witholdin payment, tradesman annoyed and going home upset, possily affecting his behaviour with family, imapcted on financially as time and materials on job gone to waste...

Apologies if I've gone off on one but please try to understand customers perspective - I'd already seen d'n'b not acceptable on this site before tiling job given so the views of professionals on such websites goes to impact on probably all people in trade as standards and methods become obvious...

 

[DHTiling]

a) let him finish off and pay in full .... You are not happy with said quality , so why let him finish.?

b) let him finish off and pay less .... No, because if you let him finish then you are accepting said quality and paying less is a contradicition IMO

c) make him walk and not pay penny ... He has to be given the chance to rectify what you are not happy with but if a mutual agreement for him to leave was decided then ok.

d) get him to take off all tiles and pay for any damaged and redo whole job .... This decision is yours and between you and your tiler IMO.

Any views, opinions, advice would be greatly appreciated!


We can advise whether a job is done to BS5385 but we cannot decide if you should or should not pay anyone ... just my take on it..

 

[DHTiling]

Can i ask you to input in this thread please... basicly interested in how you chose tiler etc and your thoughts...>>>>> http://www.tilersforums.com/tiling-forum/67908-bodged-up-jobs.html

 

[Time's Ran Out]

Reading between the lines in your reply above... break down in communications - tiler should've picked up uneven walls when first looking at job? tiler should've explained he was going to d'n'd tiles instead of full bed followed by double grouting? tiler should've asked what the plastic material is that i showed him and left with all other materials for him to work with? tiler should asked where to finish off tiles if he couldn't remember instead of guessing, cutting trim and tile short? tiler not explaining he going to do 10 m2 tiling in 9 hours with 2 hours grouting to follow when originally explained 2 full days (1 being 8-9 hrs) work?

Where's the break down in communication? Maybe I missed something?

You seem to be happy with the progress being made to a good finish, compare this to a house where the foundations laid and half house built upwards before you find out foundations not done to reg (assume builder used own inspector which he has good relationship and got passed feeing fee's) would you continue to have rest of house built and pay builder knowing you're living in house with incorrect foundations?

Above example may be extreme but the message for any tradesman is explain to customer what you're doing and explain anything you're not happy about before doing job rather finding yourself in position where customer not happy, pointing out faults, jeopordising relationship and future custom, witholdin payment, tradesman annoyed and going home upset, possily affecting his behaviour with family, imapcted on financially as time and materials on job gone to waste...

Apologies if I've gone off on one but please try to understand customers perspective - I'd already seen d'n'b not acceptable on this site before tiling job given so the views of professionals on such websites goes to impact on probably all people in trade as standards and methods become obvious...

Like all disgruntled tiling threads an opinion can only be given on the information provide. When this comes in drifts and drabs and there are obviously other issues that you are not happy with, then advice that was originally provided may not be considered satisfactory!
If you are looking for a way to find a solution to your situation then I go back to my original post which suggested you go back to the Tile Shop which recommended him.
As for the customers perspective any advice I give on this forum are solely my own views having been in my trade for 40 years and I try to offer impartial comments without taking sides with such limited information. I find the analogy of a house foundations and his method of fixing tiles interesting, however I repeat my earlier post where it was common for large format materials such tiles, marble and vitralite to be fixed for many years using his method of support .

 

[dave l and l]

usually tilers/ numpties get slated on here for practising dot and dab..
you will be hitting voids when you drill through tile when fixing shower screen ect..
wonder how easy it would be to pull one of the tiles off ??
double grouting makes no sense. never heard of that.

 

[Pernah]

Thanks Dave & Dave I and I

I'll combine both of your comments and advice together and give him option to rectify job by taking tiles off - if these come off easily enough I'll help clean adhesive from tile backs and pay his intial quote providing he follows BS - If the walls were uneven that led him to d'n'd then I'll get these evened out also so no excuses.

I trust the above is fair as can't imagine how else tiler can be given opportunity to rectify job?

Many thanks all for comments and advice and no offence Timeless John, your comments and opinions are valid and nothing wrong with you being a d'n'd fan even though you may have moved away from this now, it's a method still being widely used and bet even DIY's resort to this then kick themselves after!