Is spacing a big issue with travertine

[Nardini]

This comment has really angered me. My original post in this thread may be wrong, but I am never unprofessional. I agree with others that a smaller room gives tolerance to squeeze the joint. Tell me I am wrong, but don't insult me. This is a forums full of friendly advice and blasé comments like yours are not acceptable.

Don't let it get to you, Chris. Just a touch of the old Irish blarney there, judging by the photos on his own website!

Tile gaps should be completely down to the tiles - never down to "my dad always did it this way". Some materials look good butted close, others look much better with a substantial gap. For example, I have a load of stone outside here that has gaps of up to 20mm - looking great! 1 or 2mm gaps would just look daft - and show a complete lack of artistic ability.

There ... :4:

 

[marbleman]

so you would use a 2 mm joint on all your travertine flooring , just asking is that including heated floors , timber flooring as i just find you are taking a risk, screed floor with no heating i would use 2mm joints but that is it as far iam concerned,
Just a comment to you dave there is a reason BSI recommend 3mm but lets not get into that as i will be banned for another month

 

[diamondtiling]

I did a 150 mtr floor a few years back, underfloor heating installed in the screed, 2mm grout on 600x600 travertine, no problems as yet.

:8: :smilewinkgrin:

 

[DHTiling]

I know why BS standards are made, that doesn't say that in certain jobs they have to be adhered to for that wrap over look on walls and floors ..you can't honestly say with ..lets say a 400 x400 rectifed tile wall and floor in a bathroom etc..you would put 2mm walls and 3mm floor just coz BS said so..?..or would just go 3mm on both and have a wider joint..?

Also i believe you once stated butt jointing was the way to go with stone..

Bs standards are geat ..don't get me wrong..but a pro knows what works in different situations...and you can't possilby deny that..?

as for the ban comment..?..speaks for itself.

 

[marbleman]

dave i dont want to argue aint interested, It just seems i made a comment once over marble and you jumped on bsi comment about 3mm joints on a floor. butt joints are a no go in any condition, because i said it the wrong way you feel it right to kick me is the correct thing to do.
As for bsi i agree every job is different and every product is not the same, but they have been around alot longer than me and you. The advice they give is for a reason as if there was a problem you and i know adhesive and grout manufactors will use this as a reason if it did fail .

 

[DHTiling]

Very true..adhesive manufactures will use any excuse....i ain't kicking you at all ...we value all input and my BS comment on one of your first posts was because you stated butt jointing..
Anyway you and i know what methods can and cannot be used ..3mm is bs5385 standard but in certain locatons it is deffo possible to wrap walls and floor with 2mm..

We value your input , so don't feel put out by previous posts made a while ago..


So getting back..yes 3mm is BS on floors but IMHO 2mm is fine on certain domestic jobs.

 

[marbleman]

As for the ban comment . , i was wrong in one statement to another member so i emailed them to say sorry it was accepted ,
Its life no one is perfect and we all make mistakes and say things the wrong way sometimes, as its not my strength WORDS
work with my hands not words so i try and be careful in what i type

 

[The D]

1.5mm up to 2 mm max.

Any bigger then that only shows how unprofessional you are

i must be crap then!

 

[peckers]

After reading the last few cooments, is it not a question pro tilers should be asking the customer"Have they given any consideration to what tile size joints they would like or have seen" If what they would like to have is impractible or not suitable for the relevant job in hand that we as pro tilers should advise them of the reasons why and tell them what is suitable?

 

[Stan001]

Well I think peckers raises a good point
He says …
‘its not up to customers to dictate what the size should be but up to pro-tilers’

I want to take this one step forward

I say ‘its not up to pro-tilers opinions to say what’s acceptable, but to the standards!’ (those being enforced or recommended standards)

Why do we suddenly think we are experts in knowing what works and what doesn’t vs. core materials engineering people like Webber or peripheral engineering people like Schluter or Dural who's work goes into standards based on lots of lab hours and tests? Have we worked out the co-efficient of expansion deltas for screed vs. drywall vs. tile etc etc and compared to the total flex allowance per each type of grout over each grout gap length – tell you what guys – I haven’t! And do we think even combined we have the experience of years of knowing what works when tile formats have doubled in recent history and screeds, adhesives, and grouts have changed and under floor heating gets stuck in all over the place? Can we even know that inserting the above variable on additional sub straight equivalent variables would all perform the same even though the third party OEM’s claim their stuff is all the same in accordance with spec (i.e. How ‘the same’ is 18mm WBP ply vs. 6mm Hardi vs. 2mm plastic ply? Re in-situ expansion performance across a floor). There is even super new variables with no history like BAL’s Variset – do you know how that’s gonna perform over time? (no you don’t but we know BAL almost certainly designed it to conform with standards – so if we adhere to standards we don’t need to know the history that doesn’t exist)

You want to hold your experience as an expert up against all these variables? Humm – I hope you have good PLI or good luck.

If I state I’m gonna use 1mm gaps in walls and floors or even butt joint because I think that looks better then isn’t that just as dumb as saying I’m gonna use PVA, leave out decoupling and expansion strips and leave out primer and tanking because I recon its ok?

If you hold up YOUR expertise as a good standard then that’s just as valid as any of these flock of kitchen fitters and plumbers telling us and our customers that THEIR tile fix standards are just as good – think about that for a second before we all start pontificating.

Don’t we become experts and pro-tilers because we adhere to standards and not because WE know what WE recon we could get away with?

Stan

 

[Colour Republic]

Stan, I hear you and please don't take this the wrong way, but here is somebody talking about another trade 'decorating' but it applys to all construction industries which we have all come across....

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Why do we find so many instruction sheets that just don't seem to work? Why don't they go far enough in telling us what we need to know? There are a number of reasons for this:[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]1. Often instruction sheets are made up in mass groups. A manufacturer might use the same instruction sheet on all their prepasted wallcoverings even though those wallcoverings might be made from different backings.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]2. Most instruction sheets must be easily understood by the non professional. (This is especially true when dealing with prepasted wallcoverings.) Since these instruction sheets can't possibly give the consumer all the information they might need in dealing with every situation they just give information that is generally correct.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Take just a minute and look at the installation problems as they exist in real life.....[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]I'm going to give you 20 double rolls of wallcovering to hang. This wallcovering is all from the same run. In other words it was all produced at exactly the same time.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]I want you to hang 10 of those double rolls in Mrs. Smith's home and 10 double rolls in Mrs. Jones's home. In both cases you will be hanging over new sheet rock that is already primed (sized) with a good wallcovering undercoat. Can you be sure that the wallcovering in both these jobs will hang exactly the same?[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Suppose it is July. The temperature outside is running right around one hundred degrees every day with no rain in sight. Mrs. Smith has air conditioning and Mrs. Jones does not.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Now, will both jobs hang the same? Probably not.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The Weather . . .[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Just the condition of the air around you is bound to affect the way the wallcovering behaves. Suppose the manufacturer told us in his instruction sheet that they want us to let the wallcovering soak for four minutes before taking it to the wall. GENERALLY this would work just fine...but..[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]We follow the manufacturer's suggestion in Mrs. Smith's home and the wallcovering installs without a problem. In fact it is a dream product. The professional would make an easy days pay or the homeowner (if they were hanging) would have little or no problems.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]BUT in Mrs. Jones' home using the very same wallcovering it doesn't work at all. The wallcovering is dried out when we take it to the wall. We have no slip -- the wallcovering doesn't even want to come unbooked! We have, after all, been hanging in an oven. The wallcovering job succeeds when we reduce the soak time and increase the amount of water in our adhesive.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Now for fun let's add more variables . . .[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Let's change our jobs so that Mrs. Jones and Mrs. Smith's homes were both air conditioned. But, now Mrs. Jones has walls that are in a greasy kitchen. These walls have probably been painted ten times over the past fifteen years. Mrs. Smith's walls are not primed new drywall. The instruction sheet tells us to just "size" the walls. Are we going to treat both circumstances the same? Never.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Whoa...just imagine throwing in a few hundred more variables . . .[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Suppose you are a manufacturer and you're selling wallcovering all over the United States from the cold north, to the dry hot southwest, to the hot humid south. Furthermore you're selling this same wallcovering in all seasons of the year. You're selling it to people who want to install it over paneling, concrete block, painted drywall, unpainted drywall, tile, plaster walls, sandfinish.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Are you beginning to see the problem?[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Instruction sheets must fall short because the manufacturer is not there with the customer looking at their particular wall situation. They try to make short broad rules that will hopefully cover most installations without too much going wrong.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]In other words they can't teach an entire course on wallcovering installation on one tiny sheet of paper even when they use fine print![/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]So what is the solution?[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The obvious solution is that if you are NOT a professional don't attempt to bite off more than you can chew. Use the suggestions we made and carefully pick those jobs you can do. If you do run into problems STOP. Go to the wallcovering store where you bought the wallcovering and ask for their advice. If they don't have answers they will be able to research for you and come up with some great suggestions. They want your job to be successful and will do everything in their power to make certain it succeeds! That is just one reason why you should never ever purchase wallcoverings through 800 numbers.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]If you are a professional...always read the instruction sheets...but use your education and experience to let the job tell you what to do. [/FONT]

 

[Stan001]

Hi Rob
Your posting supports my complaints ref how the system is not working (glad you posted it).
The ‘system’ ‘allows’ such lack of control that so called ‘experts’ (both trades people and as you correctly point out some companies printing ‘generic’ standards, which are in effect often a joke from some Chinese companies Asian sales and marketing office).
I have posted previously on this forum that BS5385 should be available free to us all (as a download like building regs are) or at minimal cost for a posted paper edition. EN12002 and EN12004 should similarly be available free with a full explanation of application spec per specified area in clear language so DIY’s can understand too.
My argument being (again repeated from previous posting) is that the authorities want to make us adhere to standards that 1. are guidance only not enforced, 2. are too expensive.
Then companies are forced to step into the void to give their own instructions (as you state in your example, possible incorrect and probably generic / not relevant) plus the ‘experience’ of tradespeople. There may be real experts here (I think forum regulars know who they are) but Joe Public will see any smooth tanking convincing person as an expert. We see them all the time on Rogue Traders.
For us there are companies out there making a real effort to inform via direct ref and explanation to standards, these include Mapei, BAL and Ardex, but I have to say the people who really impress me are Webber. But ALL the product manufacturers should be allowed (without fear of licence infringement) to quote verbatim from the BS specs. i.e. effectively give the specs away if the authorities wont.
The standards are to ensure a minimum performance quality. What a pointless waste of time if the standards are not freely available and generic (made in Hong Kong) and trade experts. Grout lines and your wallpaper post are great examples of the lack of control in this industry, a lack of control allowing ‘opinion’ to replace ‘professionally provided and proven specifications’.
There is no such amateur slackness in electrical installation (its still not perfect but nearly there) and opinion is being rapidly replaced by spec and enforcement in plumbing too. But tile installation need the same control.
Next week I have a full bathroom to tile including shower, floor plus all walls to the ceiling. My customer has accepted and is paying for tanking in the shower and also on the floor. But he could have refused and I would have walked and he would have found a ‘tiler’ willing to do that job (in an upstairs bathroom) without the waterproofing measures. Tanking is now suggested (groan) as being best practice by the ‘authorities’ (groan again). It should be enforced in all upstairs bathrooms (so my customer couldn’t make me walk to save a few pennies). Its not up to my customer, me, or self appointed experts here how grout lines, tanking etc is done, surely any potential neighbour (living below my customer) should expect not to have water pee through his ceiling 6 months after I’ve left.
Part P is starting to work (and it frustrates me but I do understand) as clearly if a DIYer / trader installs dodgy electrics then people can actually die, but cant we cause massive amounts of damage to property or people potentially?
This grout lines issue is just one example of how wrong everything is and how companies can actually slide sideways and provide instructions shifting any responsibility and blame for a poor job to us the tilers (or in the example posted. The decorator)
It is outrageous that companies can post ‘use your education and experience’, in fact it should be made illegal! …. And we and our customers should be helped – I’d like to post up everything here directly lifted from BS ref grout lines – but if I did I’d have a knock on the door and be prosecuted, that is simply nuts! Its simply nuts that we are having to discuss grout lines on this thread – it should be 100% crystal clear no argument what is allowed where – for both us and out customers safety.
Stan
p.s. having said that, I also say thank God this forum exists for pro’s and DIY’s to exchange best practice etc. given that the information void does exist. Or the fencers, bathroom fitter, plasterers, sparkies and plumbers would be telling our customers how to tile. … and 99% of them haven’t ever attended a course or even read the instruction on the back of a bag of addy!

 

[Spud]

Well I think peckers raises a good point
He says …
‘its not up to customers to dictate what the size should be but up to pro-tilers’

I want to take this one step forward

I say ‘its not up to pro-tilers opinions to say what’s acceptable, but to the standards!’ (those being enforced or recommended standards)

Why do we suddenly think we are experts in knowing what works and what doesn’t vs. core materials engineering people like Webber or peripheral engineering people like Schluter or Dural who's work goes into standards based on lots of lab hours and tests? Have we worked out the co-efficient of expansion deltas for screed vs. drywall vs. tile etc etc and compared to the total flex allowance per each type of grout over each grout gap length – tell you what guys – I haven’t! And do we think even combined we have the experience of years of knowing what works when tile formats have doubled in recent history and screeds, adhesives, and grouts have changed and under floor heating gets stuck in all over the place? Can we even know that inserting the above variable on additional sub straight equivalent variables would all perform the same even though the third party OEM’s claim their stuff is all the same in accordance with spec (i.e. How ‘the same’ is 18mm WBP ply vs. 6mm Hardi vs. 2mm plastic ply? Re in-situ expansion performance across a floor). There is even super new variables with no history like BAL’s Variset – do you know how that’s gonna perform over time? (no you don’t but we know BAL almost certainly designed it to conform with standards – so if we adhere to standards we don’t need to know the history that doesn’t exist)

You want to hold your experience as an expert up against all these variables? Humm – I hope you have good PLI or good luck.

If I state I’m gonna use 1mm gaps in walls and floors or even butt joint because I think that looks better then isn’t that just as dumb as saying I’m gonna use PVA, leave out decoupling and expansion strips and leave out primer and tanking because I recon its ok?

If you hold up YOUR expertise as a good standard then that’s just as valid as any of these flock of kitchen fitters and plumbers telling us and our customers that THEIR tile fix standards are just as good – think about that for a second before we all start pontificating.

Don’t we become experts and pro-tilers because we adhere to standards and not because WE know what WE recon we could get away with?

Stan

I appreciate you comments on this stan but b.s standards are in a constant state of flux and constantly change as new methods and products come into the market ,you mention schluter in you post, schluter was a german tiler not a scientist ,who went to an engineering shop and got some tile trim made as he didnt like the exposed edges of tiles on adhesive fixed floors ,he then questioned why tile installations were falling on balconies and developed an uncoupling matting that helped with freeze and thaw problems ,if schluter had the mind set to follow the status quo and not question what he was doing we wouldnt have many of the revolutionary products we use today ,so this was a tiler who was doing the job ,using the materials and seeing the problems that made the difference not a bloke in a lab trying to work out why things work/fail .an ounce of experience is worth a ton of theory .

 

[Stan001]

Gary - i totally agree with you - we should always improve then update the specs then issue free to trade and public (same as building regs! they update nearly every year). The specs should also be European at min (we use EN to spec addy and grout, why not adopt Euronorm to replace BS for installation practice? and really share best practice). I absolutely support improvement and change. Stan

 

[Stan001]

As an example: years ago I worked on the IEC, IEEE and CECC, I co-designed the Futurebus+ computer system which is now commonly used in telecom equipment. My team designed a guidance system to improve circuit board installation, a competitor designed a great coding system. We both agreed to hand over our designs to the specs boards and groups we both worked for so everyone could use them as the standard and everyone else could make and supply these designs. Its how we make ‘good stuff’. I know the big tiling names have an involvement with specs. I’m guessing that if the specs were enforced they’d have an even bigger contribution to ensure their stuff is in the spec. Result = we all win … the manufacturers, the tilers, the customers!