Massive problem involving chipboard flooring and underfloor heating.

I'm a chippy, I fit a lot of kitchens and some bathrooms, inevitably I have done quite a bit of tiling, which I have learnt from older tradesman I have worked with in my early years in the trade. I've never had a complaint about my tiling, I don't class myself as a tiler, I can accurately cut a tile, I can space them, I can get them level, I know you must get a bond with the adhesive, etc. I know that what you're tiling onto can often be the most problematic part of tiling and I'm certainly not an expert in that, which I'm very honest about.

A couple of years ago I was on a job doing general carpentry work, there was a tiler on the job doing the bathrooms, I was lined up to do the wood flooring down stairs, the homeowner/site runner came to us a few days before the flooring was due to get started and said he'd decided to have tiles instead of wood, fair enough, he also said he'd had a price from the tiler but he thought it was too much, he knew I had done tiling, he asked if me and my mate would do it on a day rate, we foolishly agreed, but because it was due to be laid on chipboard I told my customer I knew nothing about that and I doubted you would even be able to tile on chipboard and that he should tell the tile shop the situation and take their advice on it. He came back and said it's fine, we just need to use this particular primer which he got and applied to the floor, he also suggested we used lash clips, I said I've never heard of them but I'll give them a go, I laid a few tiles with a 12mm towel, because of the clips I decided a bigger trowel would be better so I went and bought a 20mm trowel, the evening of that first day the plumber came and connected up the piped underfloor heating, the plumber works on sites with this sort of thing going on all the time so I thought nothing of it (he knows best I thought) the next five days we spent tiling the heating was gradually being turned up (apparently that's what you have to do with new underfloor heating). I should also mention, it was January, freezing cold and the chipboard was brand-new freshly laid within days of tiling. We grouted and then our customer changed his mind on grout colour and put a different grout over the top of our grout himself one weekend. With in a couple of months I think, grout was coming out, some tiles were loose and some cracked. Something I should mention, my customer thought it was faulty adhesive and contacted mapei, who sent a rep, he lifted one tile and told him that the tiler should have applied adhesive to the back of the tile as well as the floor! I put my hands up, I have never heard of that and neither have any of the local tradesmen I have spoken to in my area.

What do u reckon is the most likely cause of the problems?

Many thanks!
 
I am sorry mate but you should stick to your trade and never get involved with tiling again.Hardieboard on top chipboard stick with adhesive and screw every 200-250 mm
 
A catalogue of errors really. No back buttering, chipboard should’ve been overboarded and UFH should’ve been left for a month before properly commissioning.
 
Unfortunately Stan you won’t get too much sympathy from the tilers on here!
They are a miserable bunch and can’t wait to stick the chisel in.
Now me, well I have to agree you did everything incorrect from tiling onto chipboard, not back buttering the tiles, no experience of levelling clips ....etc.
Now I’am not sure where you expect this to go but I’d blame the plumber for turning the heating on too soon and too high despite you telling them not to ( see where that’s going).
2 years ago the job so what does the customer want you to do?
 
Cheers for all replies, wasn't expecting much sympathy, I know how it works. Surprised by everyone saying back buttering is definite issue, but fair do's.

Where do I expect it to go?... well my customer obviously wants it sorting, I have insurance which I hope and pray would cover it, otherwise **** knows what I'm going to do. I'm just not happy about taking full blame, I said to my customer from the start I doubted you could tile chipboard and we would probably have to board it, he went off to tile giant and came back with a gritty primer they told him he could use on chipboard. I was very honest with my customer about my tiling knowledge and experience. My biggest fault was getting involved in the first place the way I see it.
 
I don't think back buttering would of saved it . Mapei don't want admit their adhesive isn't suitable for chip board . Alsoturning on heating whilst tiling is out of order . Basically a catalogue of errors . Admittedly you tiled in good faith at the direction of your client but you have a duty to find out for yourself
 
I don't think back buttering would of saved it . Mapei don't want admit their adhesive isn't suitable for chip board . Alsoturning on heating whilst tiling is out of order . Basically a catalogue of errors . Admittedly you tiled in good faith at the direction of your client but you have a duty to find out for yourself
I don't think back buttering would of saved it . Mapei don't want admit their adhesive isn't suitable for chip board . Alsoturning on heating whilst tiling is out of order . Basically a catalogue of errors . Admittedly you tiled in good faith at the direction of your client but you have a duty to find out for yourself

Yeah I wish I had now. Trouble is I was kind of friends with the guy, he was an old neighbour, so the arrangement was kind of relaxed. We're not really friends now. Reckon I should just put my hands up and hang for it?
 
So this all occurred 18 months + ago?
Surely this has been rectified.
Why ask for advice now?
 
Not been rectified. He came to me about 6 months ago about it and basically looking at it then I could see it is riddled with problems, he wanted me to relay the loose ones and I basically said I would be doing the same again to relay so what's to stop it going pear shaped again, I basically told him the problem was probably bigger than simply relaying the loose ones.

We're at a situation where he's on about moving his family out of the house, the kitchen, skirting and all other fixtures removed, tiles and chipboard up and replace the lot. I'm thinking £10k guess. He also insists he will put it all back in the same way, same tiles onto chipboard, because the only cause of the problem is the amount of adhesive I put on (20mm).

I'm not rich £10k is unthinkable.
 
Freezing cold too? That's a major problem.
First - cement only really works well over 5c, and if the tiles were cold then warmed, thermal shock can break the adhesive bond which was likely very weak to begin with.
 
If this isn’t a wind up then I kinda feel sorry for you in a way because you’re coming across so sincere but this is a perfect example of “stick to what you KNOW, not what you think you can do”. Most of us on here have invested years and years of our lives so that we can be professional in our jobs so in that regard I don’t have any sympathy, you shouldn’t have touched it knowing you didn’t know for sure what to do.
I’ve nothing to gain from busting your chops about it but as already said there’s so much wrong with this from the start. Hopefully you’ll get out of this without it going to court because if it does I don’t fancy your chances of a favourable outcome. The problem is once you charge money for a service your to be held account for the outcome and in this case it’s all been done wrong from the start.
I hope you get out of it without too much pain, good luck!
 
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Thankyou for taking the time to post this on the forum. You have read the reasons for the failure and you have been very honest about it all. Sadly so many people (some tile sheds, builders & YouTube stars included) think your practices are acceptable and still maintain that they are.
I do wish you all the very best with it all and I too feel sorry for the situation you are in. I hope you get a satisfactory resolution to it. Do keep us updated.

Geoff
 
600 x 600 tiles. I was thinking the same as one of the guys above, as a contributing factor the fact that the boards were stored and layed in very cold conditions, so your going to maximum movement in the boards when the heating comes on. Likewise the tiles were out in the cold open garage being bought in.

Sadly it's no wind up. I'm not trying to wash my hands of responsibility, there's just do many contributing factors here, I don't see why I should take the brunt of all of it.
 
Although my first post was somewhat ‘glib’ I wouldn’t hold my hands up and admit liability in court!
Their are reasons we don’t tile direct to chipboard, but primed and good adhesive will normally mean they stick!
When I’ve seen failures it’s usually cracking along a joint. There is a possibility that your levelling clips have pulled the bond away from the floor but the depth of your bed should have been enough.
From your info it’s the heating that seems to be the issue and it’s effect on your work. So again I’d say Don’t admit anything! Customers rarely follow the procedure for commissioning UFH and so most tilers now have it on their invoices under terms and conditions. You see the tiler/adhesive is always to blame.
Case history.
I did a stone floor 20 years ago. Old Manor House, thick floorboards, 15mm plywood screwed through to joists. Taped all joints ( no decoupling in those days). Got called to a site visit 6 months later for cracking tiles every 4-8 feet! I’am being asked to fix it ‘tilers fault’ , I tell them it’s not my responsibility. I suggest they get a Structural Engineer in to assess the floor which had dropped 18mm from the skirting and now had the equivalent of 3 tons of granite worktops inc a ton centre console.
We can fix tiles to the relevant British Standards but we have absolutely no control after we leave a job.
 
Thanks for all advice, much appreciated!

I've a feeling it's going to be a complicated affair to resolve.

Does anyone have any good advice on fixing the problem? Short of pulling everything out right back to the floor joists? I'm obviously not going to be doing it myself, lesson learnt there, but I've read about some kind of grinder that takes off the adhesive is there anything else that can be done?
 
you seem a decent guy i would throw it back to the client, he knew you wernt a tiler as a tiler gave him a price which he wasnt prepared to pay. he instructed you to tile on chipdoard and he had the heating turned on too early. the heating turned on to early is a major issue and in my opinion the main cause of failure which would dry out adhesive too quickly causing de bonding. its the clients fault for being a skin flint getting a chippy to do a cheap job he got what he paid for a bodge job. youve done your best brass it out live and learn. if it goes to court have you got evidence of his instructions to you eye witnesses etc any thing in writing the plumber turning on the heating. the fault is not 100% yours probably 33% the other the clients and the plumber good luck.
 
gotta agree with the last couple of posts. You were put in a situation that was out of your control and now all of a sudden you are expected to be the scapegoat. I’d stand firm and tell them it wasn’t just a case of installer error, it was a preparation error and UFH commissioning error.
 
don't really agree with the above two.
you haven't prepared the floor and fixed the tiles correctly. that may or may not have caused the failure, but do agree if floor wasn't commissioned correctly this would more then likely be the problem. You should have stopped it being turned on when you were fixing and not listened to the Plumber or customer if they insisted it had to be.
if this ends in court and both customer and plumber say it wasn't turned on and was commissioned correctly it would be you word against there's. If you haven't got anything to back up what you say, email at the time or photos, I don't fancy your chances, sadly.
sorry for saying your post was a wind up.
 
don't really agree with the above two.
you haven't prepared the floor and fixed the tiles correctly. that may or may not have caused the failure, but do agree if floor wasn't commissioned correctly this would more then likely be the problem. You should have stopped it being turned on when you were fixing and not listened to the Plumber or customer if they insisted it had to be.
if this ends in court and both customer and plumber say it wasn't turned on and was commissioned correctly it would be you word against there's. If you haven't got anything to back up what you say, email at the time or photos, I don't fancy your chances, sadly.
sorry for saying your post was a wind up.
A friend of mine was in court once and the judge said ignorance is no defence of the law . Before anybody gets uptight by ignorance he meant not knowing
 
My opinion on the matter is it is 100% your fault. Yes the plumber turned the heating on, but if you knew what you were doing you would have stopped him. Your doing the tiling you dictate what is done for the job to be done correctly. If I listened to plumbers and clients, I'd be doing things the wrong way half the time. Put your hands up and get it sorted out.
 
I wasn't actually there when he turned it on, he was doing it in the evenings and weekends as a foreigner for his mate. We did one day tiling came in the next and the heating was on. Granted at that point I should have known and tools down maybe. My customer was always very quick to remind me also that the plumber works on posh new builds with this set up all the time. Granted again I should have argued the toss.
 
It can often be last man to work gets the blame. With finishing trades like tiling you have to be so careful to control everything. If you can’t. Walk. Sorry for your situation.
 
I think your only way out of this is to find the tiler who originally quoted and ask him what he advised the client was the correct method. He might be disinclined to help you though. It would help you prove that he was advised by a competent person, completely ignored that advice and then hired someone he knew was unqualified to carry out the work, according to instructions given by him. All to save a few quid.
Not saying you'd be found completely blameless, but your liability might be significantly reduced. The bloke sounds like an idiot tbh.
 
As above really. Sounds like the customer didn't want to pay fot the prep work which would of given the floor the strength it needed to be tiled.

For all the you know the client was told the proper way to prep a floor by the tile shop but decided not to bother and went with a half assed as maybe it would work.
 

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