Pending disaster?

[zzr-matt]

Well pretty much finished tiling the bathroom using 23cm x 40cm ceramic tiles. Glued up with Keraflex maxi using a thick bed trowel. As I went along I checked I was getting good coverage on the back of the tile and it was around 95% -> 100% with good adhesion to the wall and the tile. Everything was looking ok.

Then I chipped a tile that had been up a few days. Got the chisel out and removed the tile. After a few sharp blows I managed to crack the tile into pieces and then chisel the pieces off.

On inspection of the back of the tile it would appear that no adhesive is left sticking to them it all stayed on the wall. As I say this took a number of blows with a club hammer to shift so they are held fairly firmly!

What now concerns me is that over time the tiles will just fall off. Do they put some kind of mould release agent on the back of the tile or what? Looking at a fresh tile there doesnt apear to be any shiney slimey goo. I cant think of another reason that the adhesive would have a stronger bond to the wall than the back of the tile so I would expect the adhesive to come off 50:50 on the all and on the tile...

Am I in deep doo doo?

:furious3:

Some additional info... the wall this tile was on has been tanked with MapeGUM WPS if that makes any difference!:furious3:

 

[enduro]

I have had this a couple of times, tiles could have dust on them so adhesive wont stick, what i have done is wet the back of the tiles with a sponge as im fixing them, or used a 6mm trowel and put adhesive on wall and the tile. You will have to wait and see if they come off...P.S dont slam the door when you leave:lol:

 

[zzr-matt]

Its my house! lol

I'm never going to be happy with it now so it looks like the only solution is to take the whole lot down, buy more tiles, chissle the adhesive off the wall and pay someone to fit them properly! Kerching! 🙁

 

[enduro]

What u could do is tap the tiles and you will hear if they are fixed ok, they will sound hollow if they have not fixed properly.

 

[DHTiling]

If you can pop them off with just a scraper / chisel then they are not adhered well enough but if you have to smash then off with a hammer and chisel then they are ok....you say you periodicaly checked your coverage and if the adhesive was stuck to the tiles then ...then it should be ok....
Personally on that size of tile i would have back skimmed anyway just to make sure of good contact....
I would try and see if you can just pop one off and if it does then take them down but if there stuck then don't worry....
let us know how you get on.....

 

[zzr-matt]

They sound firm enough. I tried putting my fingers behind one round the window and leaning back and it wouldnt budge.

I've now started removing them in another area and you basically if you put the chisel between the tile and the adhesive and give it a few big wacks with the club hammer it comes off in one piece!

Just uploading some pics...

 

[zzr-matt]

Fresh tile out of the box:

One that came off with use of the hammer and chisel:

and the pattern in the adhesive left behind....

To me it looks bad... Didn't realise you were supposed to skim the back as well as the wall... ah well ya live and learn. I'll make a better job of it second time round! 🙂

When I was pulling them off as I was going along the adhesive was covering the back of the tile fully. The tile back was covered and the wall was covered and there were peeky bits between the two where I pulled them apart so I assumed everything was cool! Whoops

 

[DHTiling]

Is the adhesive still soft or is it rock hard to touch....

 

[zzr-matt]

Rock hard to touch...

 

[DHTiling]

I still think if you need a hammer and chisel to get them off then they are ok....

 

[zzr-matt]

mmm whats the best way of removing the adhesive from the wall? It really has bonded well to that!

You can get them off by getting a screw driver under a corner and gently twisting it, pop and its off. Got about a 20% breakage rate so far....

 

[zzr-matt]

Just been to try the single tile that I put up as a temporary splashback behind the basin downstairs... Thew it up a while back with some cheap unibond tubbed stuff that was in the garage...

That damn thing is completely bonded to the wall, snapped a corner off and some plaster trying to remove it. I can only assume I mixed the keraflex wrong🙁

 

[DHTiling]

If they are coming of that easy then YES!! take them off....scrape ony loose and high bits of adhesive off.. prime.. and then just tile over it...make sure the adhesive isnt to dry as this will make poor contact...good luck...

 

[zzr-matt]

I think I will try and get them all off tomorrow, count up the breakages and have a look at getting the adhesive off / priming it then I'll just try and find someone to do the job for me!

I'm just worried I'm going to do it again and be in the same situation 🙁

 

[Dan]

Is it just cement based adhesives that need to be left for a period of tie before the adhesive is fully cured?

I'm thinking as the pattern is in the adhesive so neatly the tiles have been pushed into it enough.

That to me looks like the tile has been stuck, the adhesive has 'dried' but it hasn't built up strength yet.

 

[DHTiling]

This usually takes 3/4 days to happen and with him saying they had been up a few days i didn't think this was the problem...but that is an option as well dan....but looks like he wants to take them off anyway....

 

[Matthew77]

I just recently completed two walls of a kitchen in 300 by 600 B&Q tiles. At the end of the day i was chatting to the lady i was working for and a tile from the top row fell off the wall(bad timing).
On inspection the tile was like yours totally clean on the back of addy although you could see the tile had left a good imprint in the addy on the wall. Now when i was laying these tiles i noticed they had a bfew mm of chalky stuff vertically along two edges (I guess to stop them scratching in transit) this stuff had rubbed off in transit i think and coated the tiles in a thin film of fine dust!
Luckely i'd been chiseling off the exess powder strips as i went & wiping the tiles with a damp cloth. I'd obviously missed a few.
So far all the rest have stayed on the wall, I have to go back in the new year to fix some shelfs to the tiled wall, I think i'll find out then if they are all fixed well?
From now on Any tiles with these strips are going to get a proper washing from me, i'd never seen this before on tiles.

 

[zzr-matt]

Is it just cement based adhesives that need to be left for a period of tie before the adhesive is fully cured?

I'm thinking as the pattern is in the adhesive so neatly the tiles have been pushed into it enough.

That to me looks like the tile has been stuck, the adhesive has 'dried' but it hasn't built up strength yet.

So before I let loose with the club hammer is it worth waiting longer. How long are we talking? Some have been on around a week!

 

[zzr-matt]

It would appear the ones that got put up around 2 weeks ago are bonded like sticky stuff to a blanket...

Its just the ones that are onto the surface that has been tanked and bare ply wood (as instructed by mapei technical) that can be popped off at the moment. The ones that are onto Primer G coated plaster dont seem to want to budge...

Is it worth waiting a couple of weeks with the ones on the tanked backing to see if its because the moisture can only come out of the adhesive by soaking into the tile not the backing as well? Or are there a big bunch of straws that I'm clutching at?

 

[wayne]

i would leave them a bit longer just to make sure. it does this a lot of times i have found.coverage is fine then day after pop a tile and there is none on the back of the tile. must be something to do with the moisture and the biscuit of the tile

 

[bathroomboy]

Iv'e had this especially with cheap turkish tiles, I think if you are using tubbed then it's not wet enough and I myself have wet these tiles prior to fixing as they are very porous, I now tend to use cement based powdered stuff, less chance of failure.

 

[zzr-matt]

Okies I shall leave them for a bit.

Just been back for another inspection.... The adhesive left on the wall from the tiles I took of last night is a lot "whiter" than the one I popped off this morning. So I assume that has dried out over night where now there is no tile covering it.

 

[zzr-matt]

Iv'e had this especially with cheap turkish tiles, I think if you are using tubbed then it's not wet enough and I myself have wet these tiles prior to fixing as they are very porous, I now tend to use cement based powdered stuff, less chance of failure.

Keraflex Maxi is cement based isn't it?

Not sure of the quality of the tile they are Azteca Ceramica Elements jobbies. They didnt seem that cheap but what do I know! 🙁

 

[bathroomboy]

Is the Kerraflex maxi tubbed or powdered? I prefer powdered now as you can mix it a bit wetter if needed.

 

[zzr-matt]

Keraflex maxi was powdered and mixed reasonably wet. As I say if you ploked a tile into it then pulled it out you would get good adhesion to the tile and "peaking" in the adhesive on the back of the tile when you pulled it away.

 

[Dan]

Sounds like you did it to a decent spec so I'd imagine it would be fine. If you're unsure, pull off the tiles while the come off and give them a wipe, score the adhesive on the wall and 'back-buter' the tile and press them back in again? Maybe?

*Shouts* Daaaaaavvvveeee?

 

[devonmark]

i use kerraflex and kerraquick all the time and have never had a problem, i would imagine it's dust on the back of the tiles and not failure of the adhesive unless it was mixed too dry..Mark.

 

[grumpygrouter]

I'm not familier with the Mapei stuff you have used but if it was bucket stuff it will take time to dry properly. If it was powder based, it will cure and not dry so i would have thought after a week it would have cured sufficiently to require considerable persuation to remove the tiles. Just because it is sticking to the wall and not the tile doesn't indicate it is not securely fixed. When you remove a tile, the adhesive will come away from the weakest point of contact - in this case the tile back. Any adhesive will take several weeks to reach it's maximim strength, powder or tub, maybe you are seeing a problem that doesn't actually exist?

Keep us informed of how things are going, this is interesting.

Grumpy

 

[DHTiling]

According to the technical spec on that adhesive it will reach full strength within 14 days.... broken link removed

 

[zzr-matt]

Thanks Dave I shall leave it all a couple of weeks...

Been trying to get the adhesive off the area that was tanked so I can put the tiles back on... Angle grinder, chisel and other tools later and I'm about half done.