Repairing loose tiles on Electric UFH

[jwho]

Hi everyone

Just found your site whilst searching for online help with our bathroom tiles - looks like a good forum so I hope someone can help, as I have very little experience laying tiles!

We have one or two loose porcelain 300x600mm tiles on our bathroom floor. This was fitted for us 7 months ago and for personal reasons we'd rather not get the tradesman back to fix it. I am really keen to try to fix this myself and would like to ask the advice of those with more experience.

It was (or at least, I hope it has been) fitted with a plywood board layer on top of the floor boards and the Warmup electric UFH loose wire system laid on top. We supplied the BAL flexible adhesive and Warmup UFH system.

When standing on one end of these large floor tiles, there is a little movement (about 1mm) vertically. Over time this has caused the grout to crack and come loose around the edge of the tile.

I am hoping that I can remove the remaining grout around the problem tiles (e.g. using a grout saw) and loosen the tile from its adhesive by rocking it in place by applying pressure to either end. Then lift tile and clean off adhesive underneath tile and on plywood board underfloor - taking care not to damage the UFH wires. Then mix up and apply new BAL flexible adhesive to floor and replace tile.

Does this sound feasible - does anyone have any advice on this?

Many thanks.

-William

 

[DHTiling]

Hi William.

Do you know if the UFH wires were encased in self levelling compound..? if not then it will be very difficult to clean this up without damage.. are you sure it is a loose tile and not just deflection issue with the substrate causing the grout to crack etc.?

 

[jwho]

Hi William.Do you know if the UFH wires were encased in self levelling compound..? if not then it will be very difficult to clean this up without damage.. are you sure it is a loose tile and not just deflection issue with the substrate causing the grout to crack etc.?

Hi DaveI am not sure on either point. Although I strongly suspect that there is no self levelling compound. What is "deflection with the substrate"?Many thanksWilliam

 

[bobbin]

Bounce or movement in the ply or floorboards. Insufficient screws holding it down will cause deflection which in turn over a period of time will cause cracking of grout and tiles.
If no levelling compound has been used you run the risk of damaging the ufh.

 

[Aspect Tiling]

As dave says there could be deflection/movement in the timber floor that the tiles can't cope with, causing the grout to crack and the tiles lifting. Any deflection or bounce in the floor should of been sorted prior to fixing the tiles. The minimum for ply is 15mm and should be WBP (water and boil proof). Have you any idea what was used? If there is deflection/movement in the floor I'm afraid there is no quick fix as the tiles will over time become loose again. You really need to find out why the tiles have become loose before you try and fix the problem.

 

[Rich]

Hate to give bad news but I think that you may have a bigger problem than you realise. When grout starts to crack and tiles begin to come loose (especially on plywood floors) 9 times out of 10 it is because the correct prep was not carried out on the floor before tiling and in time all the tiles will do the same. I have seen this countless times and as has been said above, there is no quick fix, rip out and redo Im afraid.

That said, This is not the only reason tiles become loose (just the most common), so you really need to find out why these tiles are coming loose and the only way to do that is to take them up. If the grout has cracked around the tiles then my guess is that the bond is broken underneath the tile, once you have removed the grout, the tile should come up pretty easily. Is there any chance you could do this and take some pics? This will give us a much better idea of what has gone on.
Pics of the cracks, the floor under the tileand the back of the tile would be a great help.

 

[jwho]

Hi guys

Here is a link to pictures of the grouting around the tiles. I have not attempted to raise any of the tiles yet so cannot provide images of the substrate or underside of tiles.

Broken Link Removed

regards

- William

 

[Rich]

Had a look at those pics and I am sticking with my theory that it is a problem with the floor under the tiles.

 

[One Day]

Rich has it right I think. Looking at the grout cracks there is either a major problem with the fixing; i.e. spot fixing or the floor has to much deflection.
How thick was the ply they used? I'll bet it was 6mm!

 

[jay]

at a guess i would say the problem is with the substrate

 

[Stef]

hi, are u sure he used the supplied bal flex adhesive? it wont b the 1st time that some 1 has tried to cut corners. if i was u i would clean up the problem area, try & put a few screws in & stick the tiles back down & re grout. if that doesnt work then u know that its a bigger problem than u think. i just done an insurance job 2 replace a bathroom floor, i know the "tilers" that done the original job, 3 times they went back 2 sort loose tiles & they still used concrete adhesive on a ply wood floor!!! there is a lot of cowboys out there.

 

[White Room]

hi, are u sure he used the supplied bal flex adhesive? it wont b the 1st time that some 1 has tried to cut corners. if i was u i would clean up the problem area, try & put a few screws in & stick the tiles back down & re grout. if that doesnt work then u know that its a bigger problem than u think. i just done an insurance job 2 replace a bathroom floor, i know the "tilers" that done the original job, 3 times they went back 2 sort loose tiles & they still used concrete adhesive on a ply wood floor!!! there is a lot of cowboys out there.

I take it you mean a standard powdered adhesive rather than a flexible addy..

 

[Stef]

yes m8, BAL rapidflex has porcelbond in it so it is guaranteed to stick to the tiles & also give u a little flex for the ply overlay. I finished a site off for Hope Homes & got asked to go back to look at a bathroom floor that another tiler had came in & laid, when a client buys a house they get a 25% off voucher for CTD, the guy had went up & bought the tiles, adhesive & grout. he bought a 20kg of BAL Rapidflex. he got the tiler to do the job when he was at his work. the shower door had a small leak & had got under 3 or 4 of the floor tiles & i was asked if i could repair them. all the grout was cracked & i could lift every floor tile using my van key. the back of the tiles had little or no adhesive stuck to them so i knew that it wasnt done with a BAL adhesive. lift a tile & it should give u a better idea what your up against.

 

[Stef]

when u say standard powder adhesive, i take it u mean for a concrete floor?

 

[One Day]

yes m8, BAL rapidflex has porcelbond in it so it is guaranteed to stick to the tiles & also give u a little flex for the ply overlay. I finished a site off for Hope Homes & got asked to go back to look at a bathroom floor that another tiler had came in & laid, when a client buys a house they get a 25% off voucher for CTD, the guy had went up & bought the tiles, adhesive & grout. he bought a 20kg of BAL Rapidflex. he got the tiler to do the job when he was at his work. the shower door had a small leak & had got under 3 or 4 of the floor tiles & i was asked if i could repair them. all the grout was cracked & i could lift every floor tile using my van key. the back of the tiles had little or no adhesive stuck to them so i knew that it wasnt done with a BAL adhesive. lift a tile & it should give u a better idea what your up against.

Not looking to argue here, and I use BAL pretty exclusively in my work but just cause the coverage was rubbish how can you say it wasn't BAL used?
Surely a rubbish job would result in poor coverage no matter what the addy used? And rapidflex is 15kg not 20kg!

 

[White Room]

Years ago it was a standard addy for ceramic tiles on screed, now with porcelain it's flexi, which I use for every tile now.

 

[Stef]

the client showed me the original receipt from CTD but i told him theres no way it was a BAL rapidflex, the adhesive had stuck to the ply, u could c the trowel marks but there was nothing on the back of the tile, I have used rapidflex for over 7 years n its 20kg bags, got 5 of them in my garage just now!!

 

[One Day]

You mean this? BAL Adhesives - Products - supercover rapid flex
Rapidflex has been out 7 yrs. Do you mean Rapidset Flexible?
Rapidflex would stick a tree to a cloud but standard rapidset flexible if skinned could fail to bond to the tile. I've seen that happen plenty.

 

[Stef]

sorry rapidSET flex, when we say rapidset its blue for over concrete, should have wrote rapid/flex. i know what u say about a skin but surely at least 1 tile would have stuck, the floor was only about 2m if u were lucky, u aint gonna trowel the floor then wait half an hour before putting any tiles down, u could tile it in half an hour.

 

[One Day]

Stupid names for good adhesives aren't they?

 

[Stef]

we always use BAL as already stated thats why when i looked at this floor and there was no bond between adhesive & tile then i knew that it hadnt been rapid/flex, THERE I GO AGAIN, that had been used. to b honest it wasnt the best of jobs, it was a guy that his dad knew, we all know 1 of them!! i reckon he swiped the BAL n used a cheap ceramic adhesive to try & lay porcelain.

 

[Daz]

I've skimmed this tread and don't know too much about BAL adhesives. However, you say that no self levelling was used over the UFH so the tiler is effectively fixing porcelain directly to plywood with UFH wires in between. I would only ever use an S2 grade adhesive on plywood (i.e. 2 part adhesive mixed with latex or Ardex x7001) for this configuration.

I think it is possible that the wrong adhesive has been used regardless of any other possible fixing errors.

Daz

 

[White Room]

we always use BAL as already stated thats why when i looked at this floor and there was no bond between adhesive & tile then i knew that it hadnt been rapid/flex, THERE I GO AGAIN, that had been used. to b honest it wasnt the best of jobs, it was a guy that his dad knew, we all know 1 of them!! i reckon he swiped the BAL n used a cheap ceramic adhesive to try & lay porcelain.

Your surmising that option, it could have been he mixed the addy to dry or even dust on the backs of tiles, we don't know but it failed..

 

[Stef]

yeah that is true, i will never know for sure what has happened, i just know that using this product for as long & goin back to sort an odd broken tile or two i just know how hard they r 2 lift out & replace. SDS chisel & the likes.