Screed drying.

[Ajax123]

I have visited recently a few tile failures and found that the vast majority of them are due tonthe screeds being still wet.

Just a reminder for all thos who don't want me to visit we have so far this year had some of the worst weather for ages and as a result drying times for screeds are innevitably affected. Just because a screed is three months old won't necessarily mean it is dry. Drying is dependent on site and ambient conditions.

The correct test for moisture in anhydrite screeds is to use a floor hygrometer which costs about £80 so not a massive investment for any tiler I wouldn't have thought. This test takes about 48hours and gives a very accurate indication of the level of moisture in the screed. You cannot make an informed choice of the adhesive system or the level of risk you face unless you know how damp the screed is. It should be tested after any underfloor heating has been comissioned and run up to temperature and down again and before any priming or tiling commences. It is essential that under floor heating is comissioned and run prior to tiling. Thisis another major cause of failure.

Some of the projects I have visited have been ruined as a result of tilers allowing clients to "bully" them into tiling too soon or in some cases them not paying attention to preparation details . THe end result is at best anger and frustration and at worst (as I saw today) a heart broken client which left a very bitter taste in my mouth.

I am receiving regular calls from forum tilers and clients alike for a advice nowadays on tiling to gyvlon screeds and I would rather receive such calls ten times from ten different people than have one phone me for advice on fixing a failure.

Think seriously aout the choice of adhesive. Don't just use what you "always use"..... It might not work. Gypsum adhesives are much more easily available now with five or six manufacturers making them and more following.

My number is freely available in the forums 07545932723 and I hope that this who have used it will agree that advice is thorough, easy to understand and above all accurate.

Please feel free to call me if you or any of your clients want or need advice on tiling to anhydrite screeds.

 

[Gazzer]

My local tile supplier has bought a Hygrometer for the regular tilers in the area use it after a failure last year.
I thought that it was very good of them, mind you most tilers around here dont understand what a Gyvlon screed is !

 

[Ajax123]

If Your tile supplier wanted to invite a few tilers along to his shop I would happily run a short session to help educate them.

 

[Gazzer]

If Your tile supplier wanted to invite a few tilers along to his shop I would happily run a short session to help educate them.

Alan, I wish he would but he is such a Luddite. I think the only reason he has paid for this Hygrometer himself is that it was one of his better customers that had the problem.

 

[hillhead]

Good thread Alan, very useful.
I had a lunch meeting with John Eyers from Kerakoll yesterday and was very impressed with his adhesives and grouts.
They seem to be well ahead of a lot of manufacturers in certain fields.
I have various adhesives and grouts to test for them too.
I will save your number.

 

[Ajax123]

Alan, I wish he would but he is such a Luddite. I think the only reason he has paid for this Hygrometer himself is that it was one of his better customers that had the problem.

Aah. Ok. Well at least you can be well informed through the forums eh

 

[Ajax123]

Good thread Alan, very useful.
I had a lunch meeting with John Eyers from Kerakoll yesterday and was very impressed with his adhesives and grouts.
They seem to be well ahead of a lot of manufacturers in certain fields.
I have various adhesives and grouts to test for them too.
I will save your number.

Yes I have found him to be sensible and knowledgeable so far. Certainly better than the last couple of reps they had in his patch.

 

[Diamond Pool Finishers]

or we could all just stick to the good old trusted hand applied semi-dry standard floor screed and not have all this grief imo as i have said before the americans have done these gypsum screeds and rejected them in the main ,and mark my words the same will happen here :whistling:

 

[Ajax123]

or we could all just stick to the good old trusted hand applied semi-dry standard floor screed and not have all this grief imo as i have said before the americans have done these gypsum screeds and rejected them in the main ,and mark my words the same will happen here :whistling:

Actually dave you are wrong. These screeds will only become more popular. That is evident by the rate at which they are penetrating not only the commercial market but also the domestic market. You strike me as being a good screeder. Unfortunately not are all like you and there are generally massive issues with screeds generally in the marketplace. This is also evident from the number of specifications in the market and the demnd from manufacturers who are asked for the materials all of the time.

Gypsum screeds resolve many of the issues that are apparent with sand cement screeds. The only one which we still have to resolve is drying, or at least generating an understanding in the market place about the importance of drying.

If you look to the european market e.g. Holland you will see that legislation is in place to outlaw the use of hand applied sand cement screeds. It really is only a matter of time untill similar legislation begins to come over to the UK.

There are major benefits to using anhydrite screeds for most aspects of the construction industry including health and safety, environmental, quality, strength, embodied energy, thermal and acoustic efficiency, time, design versatility, access to areas where sand cement simply will not perform, compatibility with modern intelligent heating controls and underfloor heating systems, availability etc etc etc.

Building systems such as the soundbar system and the Thermoplane system demand Gyvlon screeds in order to work. Modern methods of construction such as light weight steel, modular construction, cross laminated timber panel construction and traditional timber frame are all moving rapidly towards the use of flowing screed technology to resolve the issues within these sectors. The Shard in London would have been almost impossible to screed without the development of Gyvlon Sky by our company. Domestic bulk house building is moving allbeit more slowly towards systems which will only work with flowing screeds e.g. Screeded underfloor heating at first floor level. Using gypsum for this at 40mm helps to solve acoustic issues revolving around the move towards mandatory code level four. It also resolves the issues associated with fire safety in such dwellings. It also allows the house builder to improve plot density and reduction of plot size, embodied energy, cost etc etc.

I can assure you that Gyvlon screeds are not going away.

All we need is the end of the recession so people begin to build again.

 

[White Room]

I've always found in the past that new ideas in the construction sector are slow to catch on and takes time to except, do the manufacturers of these floors consult adhesive companys when in the process of development or is it more of a catch up basis.

 

[Diamond Pool Finishers]

well i just don't see all this gypsum ,all i ever see is traditional , and as you said in your first post they are causing tilers problems,and you will only have a limited amount of failures then the material will get a bad name and that will be that ,i have seen it happen time and time again in the pool industry with so called miracle materials , it stays wet to long, it has to have a lot of preparation by tilers, and it can't go into wet areas !! it don't sound to clever to me, the only benefit i can see is it can be poured, sorry Alan if we have to disagree as i really respect you as an advisor ,only time will tell who is right mate

 

[Ajax123]

I've always found in the past that new ideas in the construction sector are slow to catch on and takes time to except, do the manufacturers of these floors consult adhesive companys when in the process of development or is it more of a catch up basis.

We did not used to consult or really even talk t the adhesive and flooring suppliers. That was a mistake but hind sight is wonderfully accurate I find. It was also before my time with the company. I started at Lafarge about ten years ago now and quickly recognised the need for inter industry dialogue. I am regional vice president of the contract flooring association and work with the tile association. I also have regular and detailed contact with lots of adhesive manufacturers these days as a result of that recognition. my latest contact is through a tile supplier, tiletown in Derby, who has put me in touch with tile master adhesives who want to produce a gypsum based adhesive for our screeds.

 

[Ajax123]

well i just don't see all this gypsum ,all i ever see is traditional , and as you said in your first post they are causing tilers problems,and you will only have a limited amount of failures then the material will get a bad name and that will be that ,i have seen it happen time and time again in the pool industry with so called miracle materials , it stays wet to long, it has to have a lot of preparation by tilers, and it can't go into wet areas !! it don't sound to clever to me, the only benefit i can see is it can be poured, sorry Alan if we have to disagree as i really respect you as an advisor ,only time will tell who is right mate

In your game Dave you won't see much of it. it dries at the same rate as sand cement in the same conditions unless it is installed too deep. Prep is no different to what should happen with sand cement screeds I.e. clean it, vaccuum it, dry it, comission and run any underfloor hearing and then prime it if required followed by tiling. All of that should be done with sand cement as well. (priming is more critical when using cement based adhesive of coure).

Wet areas come down to semantics. It is designed for use in areas where it will receive a floor covering and for use in areas where it will not remain permanently wet. People often take this to mean bathrooms for example. This is not correct. You would not use it in a wet room shower as it is not really feasible to lay it to a fall. However I can say confidently thath there are several hundered thousands of bathrooms, kitchens and even a few swimming pools tha have been successfully screeded and covered using Gyvlon. I would not Recomend it for.a swimming pool because the management involved in keeping dry long term is hard work and there are easier products to manage. Sand cement or concrete is far more suitable for this application as you know. To say it can't be usedin wet areas requires a deffinition of a wet area. Really there are very few areas inside a building which will remain permanently wet.

 

[Ajax123]

Also bare in mind that not all of the screeds where I have visited failures have been on anhydrite.

 

[Dougs Third Go]

or we could all just stick to the good old trusted hand applied semi-dry standard floor screed and not have all this grief imo as i have said before the americans have done these gypsum screeds and rejected them in the main ,and mark my words the same will happen here :whistling:

at the end of the day Dave, gyvlon screeds are here for at least the foreseeable future, I'm just thankful that we have people like Alan trying to negate possible fixer errors.

 

[Aston]

i am going to be honest here..
i love alan, he's an intelligent fella and a credit to gyvlon but anhydrate screeds are crap.they take an age to dry, water sensitive and the only advantage over traditional screeds is the speed of completion and the ease of pumping rather than manual laying...pile of crap, riddled with issues and that comes not just from me but some of the biggest screeding companies in the uk...

 

[Ajax123]

i am going to be honest here..
i love alan, he's an intelligent fella and a credit to gyvlon but anhydrate screeds are crap.they take an age to dry, water sensitive and the only advantage over traditional screeds is the speed of completion and the ease of pumping rather than manual laying...pile of crap, riddled with issues and that comes not just from me but some of the biggest screeding companies in the uk...

Hmmm! Riddled with issues?? What issues?

 

[Gazzer]

Whether they stay or go, the issue at the moment is that we get the correct info into how to deal with them. We are getting that but I do feel that the screeders are the only ones benefiting.
I was informed recently that in other countries when such screeds are used it is up to the screed company to do the tests for moisture and then they sign it off as ready for floor coverings ??? Is this correct? If so why not here ?

 

[Diamond Pool Finishers]

another fact i found -out ,was that product producers in the main are only concerned with the sub straights there product is fit for use on!! NOT WHAT MAY BE USED ON TOP OF THERE PRODUCT !! surely more research should be done by material makers in both sides as there could be a list of what not to use as well.......

 

[Ajax123]

Whether they stay or go, the issue at the moment is that we get the correct info into how to deal with them. We are getting that but I do feel that the screeders are the only ones benefiting.
I was informed recently that in other countries when such screeds are used it is up to the screed company to do the tests for moisture and then they sign it off as ready for floor coverings ??? Is this correct? If so why not here ?

In France and Germany and I think holland the screeding and flooring markets work slightly differently (at least in terms of flowing screeds) in France you will often find that the flooring contractor and the screeding contractor are one and the same or at least part of the same artisan group of tradesmen. That means they will dothe moisture tests themselves. In Germany legislation sits to say a following trade takes responsibility for the previous one so the tiler will accept the screed and the issues it may cause. Because of this there is little chance of the tiler taking over the floor unless it has been tested dry by the previous contractor. You do still find tough that the tilers often do their own test as well. In holland something like seventy percent of screed is flowing and over the next four years that will increase to something like ninety five percent or more due to legislation. That means that everyone is so much more used to it over there. The suppliers in Germany and holland also work much more closely with the trades so that things are specified and installed correctly.

The uk market is much more fragmented and none talks to anyone else and everyone blames everyone else. I agree it wold be nice if screeders took responsibily for moisture testing but at the end of the day as long as it is done correctly by someone it really does not matter who does it. The screeder dot forget is often long finished and on is next projects by the time the floor coverings go down so that really puts the tiler in a much better position to do the test at the right time.

 

[Gazzer]

The screeder dot forget is often long finished and on is next projects by the time the floor coverings go down so that really puts the tiler in a much better position to do the test at the right time.

But the tiler may have to drive to the job , where ever that may be. Clean an area of floor and set Hygrometer. Wait for the hygrometer to reach moisture equilibrium. Then it can be turned on....left over night and tiler has to return to job etc etc etc...you see where i am coming from .
From my experience, No one will pay for this , not the client, not the builder. Its all down to the tiler and all in the same price.
For me I will only do it if, 1 I get paid for doing it or 2, if its a regular client/builder and its local.
Lastly... you set Hygrometer and whats the chance of it not being kicked , trod on or moved when you are not watching it ?

Never mind though .."The tiler will get over that !" :mad2:

 

[Andy Allen]

i find theres so many fixers out there that havn't got a clue about how to tile these screeds.

when you say the ufh needs to be comissioned before tiling, would that still be the case if a decoupler was being used? i know of aleast 2 tile shops advising not to bother comissioning ufh if using a decoupler.

 

[Ajax123]

another fact i found -out ,was that product producers in the main are only concerned with the sub straights there product is fit for use on!! NOT WHAT MAY BE USED ON TOP OF THERE PRODUCT !! surely more research should be done by material makers in both sides as there could be a list of what not to use as well.......

Another FACT??? Sorry to be blunt but That is complete rubbish dave. It is not a fact, it is not even accurate.I have spent ten years talking to manufacturers about products to go over gyvlon screeds. I cannot force anyone to listen to me or my company. At the end of the day Gyvlon is suitable to accept ay floor coverings currently available in the uk market. And if it is dealt with correctly there is no reason to expect any issues. It is not up to us to test other people's products for them to ensure compatibility or robustness. That is their job. We will and have in the past done such tests and will continue to do somfor our own knowledge but I would expect to be paid for such advice and testing were it to be done for commercial purposes. Manufacturers have their own test facilities so would not want to pay us for workmthey can do themselves. After all do you test the tiles that you lay for the tile manufacturer to make sure they will work, do you test the adhesives to make sure they are compatible with the tiles. I think not. And if you did you too wold want paying for the work.

There is a list of manufacturers who have systems available for use on Gyvlon Screeds on the Gyvlon website. These companies have all tested their systems on our screeds. New systmes are being developed and tested by manufacturers all the time. I can't see what more we would be legitimately ale to do.

One thing i do notice in the flooring community is heavy Brand Loyalty. Nothing wrong with that unless the brand you use does not have a material or system which works and can be demonstrated to work repeatedly and consistently. If tilers (generally) were more flexible in their approach to materials suppliers and rather than choosing the one they always use they went for the one that worked best then perhaps many of the perceived issues would disappear. Just like they did in France when recommending just gypsum adhesives became more the norm rather than the exception. Many of the tilers I have spoken to have taken a more pragmatic approach to tiling these screeds and have changed suppliers. This has reduced the issues they perceive very significantly.

Really pees me off when people say only the screeders benefit. That is complete tosh as well. I have listed some of the benefits earlier. Of course the screeders benefit. That is why they are in business. Who wants bad knees, elbows, back, neck etc etc from being on their hands and knees all day in bad conditions laying sand cement. stone age Screeding is not for me regardless of how good or bad I was at it. The industry recognises he impact of these materials on the human frame and is beginning to move away from the. There are massive benefits to all sorts of people. Ok as a tiler you might have to wait a little longer to get on with tiling. Why does that actually matter in the general scheme of things. Tthe environment wins, the client wins, the screeder wins, the tiler waits a bit longer but generally has a much flatter and predictable floor to tile on to so he wins as well. What more do you guys want??!

I began this thread in a bid to help and with the exception of a few sensible comments it turned into a rant about flowing screeds. A rant which does not even have any basis in fact.......water sensitive....what the heck does that mean. If you get water on gyvlon it gets wet. If you get water on sand cement it gets wet....what's the difference there. Pile of crap.....what sort of scientific analysis is that??!! America rejected these screeds, what rubbish. They have only just begun to use them and they are only available in a fraction of the country. Where they are available they are used widely and gaining ground against other methods.....bear in mind the screed make tin America is relatively small anyway. Risddled with issues....if this were the case why have they continued to sell well throughout the uk and Ireland as well as western europe for well over fifty years.

Please guys if you are going to argue do so with qualification and accuracy not with hearsay and gossip.

End of rant.....awaits the backlash.....

 

[Ajax123]

Been a while since the long posts were out

 

[Gazzer]

A good debate not Rant IMO
But.
Let me say what feedback i get.
Screeder does the floor in Gyvlon. Builder calls me in and says tile it. I say I need either epoxy primer or Gypsum adhesive etc ( all more £s than standard fixing methods ).
Builder hasnt got the money in for it (They all say the same) I am expected to wave a magic wand and make it all better while the screeder is up the road with a bundle of cash .

Lets not get it wrong here, it is more labour intensive if you need to sand the floor ( I have never had to do that with sand and cement) plus its the hire or purchase of machines and sanding discs.
Gypsum adhesive is a lot more £s than normal adhesive...so it all adds up.

Now I dont mind this work as long as I get paid but its usually the builder that contacts me after the screed is laid for a price. Its not me that is being uneducated, its the builders who are usually no more than organisers of trades.

I came on the forums for info and I am so glad people like yourself Alan are here to give it. It could also be said though that there is a difference between your large national building companies and the small one man band builders.

I feel that when the builders are given info on free flowing screeds etc they only see it as a fast track and not the whole picture.

Not a rant !