Screed drying.

[Ajax123]

I have visited recently a few tile failures and found that the vast majority of them are due tonthe screeds being still wet.

Just a reminder for all thos who don't want me to visit we have so far this year had some of the worst weather for ages and as a result drying times for screeds are innevitably affected. Just because a screed is three months old won't necessarily mean it is dry. Drying is dependent on site and ambient conditions.

The correct test for moisture in anhydrite screeds is to use a floor hygrometer which costs about £80 so not a massive investment for any tiler I wouldn't have thought. This test takes about 48hours and gives a very accurate indication of the level of moisture in the screed. You cannot make an informed choice of the adhesive system or the level of risk you face unless you know how damp the screed is. It should be tested after any underfloor heating has been comissioned and run up to temperature and down again and before any priming or tiling commences. It is essential that under floor heating is comissioned and run prior to tiling. Thisis another major cause of failure.

Some of the projects I have visited have been ruined as a result of tilers allowing clients to "bully" them into tiling too soon or in some cases them not paying attention to preparation details . THe end result is at best anger and frustration and at worst (as I saw today) a heart broken client which left a very bitter taste in my mouth.

I am receiving regular calls from forum tilers and clients alike for a advice nowadays on tiling to gyvlon screeds and I would rather receive such calls ten times from ten different people than have one phone me for advice on fixing a failure.

Think seriously aout the choice of adhesive. Don't just use what you "always use"..... It might not work. Gypsum adhesives are much more easily available now with five or six manufacturers making them and more following.

My number is freely available in the forums 07545932723 and I hope that this who have used it will agree that advice is thorough, easy to understand and above all accurate.

Please feel free to call me if you or any of your clients want or need advice on tiling to anhydrite screeds.

 

[Gazzer]

My local tile supplier has bought a Hygrometer for the regular tilers in the area use it after a failure last year.
I thought that it was very good of them, mind you most tilers around here dont understand what a Gyvlon screed is !

 

[Ajax123]

If Your tile supplier wanted to invite a few tilers along to his shop I would happily run a short session to help educate them.

 

[Gazzer]

If Your tile supplier wanted to invite a few tilers along to his shop I would happily run a short session to help educate them.

Alan, I wish he would but he is such a Luddite. I think the only reason he has paid for this Hygrometer himself is that it was one of his better customers that had the problem.

 

[hillhead]

Good thread Alan, very useful.
I had a lunch meeting with John Eyers from Kerakoll yesterday and was very impressed with his adhesives and grouts.
They seem to be well ahead of a lot of manufacturers in certain fields.
I have various adhesives and grouts to test for them too.
I will save your number.

 

[Ajax123]

Alan, I wish he would but he is such a Luddite. I think the only reason he has paid for this Hygrometer himself is that it was one of his better customers that had the problem.

Aah. Ok. Well at least you can be well informed through the forums eh

 

[Ajax123]

Good thread Alan, very useful.
I had a lunch meeting with John Eyers from Kerakoll yesterday and was very impressed with his adhesives and grouts.
They seem to be well ahead of a lot of manufacturers in certain fields.
I have various adhesives and grouts to test for them too.
I will save your number.

Yes I have found him to be sensible and knowledgeable so far. Certainly better than the last couple of reps they had in his patch.

 

[Diamond Pool Finishers]

or we could all just stick to the good old trusted hand applied semi-dry standard floor screed and not have all this grief imo as i have said before the americans have done these gypsum screeds and rejected them in the main ,and mark my words the same will happen here :whistling:

 

[Ajax123]

or we could all just stick to the good old trusted hand applied semi-dry standard floor screed and not have all this grief imo as i have said before the americans have done these gypsum screeds and rejected them in the main ,and mark my words the same will happen here :whistling:

Actually dave you are wrong. These screeds will only become more popular. That is evident by the rate at which they are penetrating not only the commercial market but also the domestic market. You strike me as being a good screeder. Unfortunately not are all like you and there are generally massive issues with screeds generally in the marketplace. This is also evident from the number of specifications in the market and the demnd from manufacturers who are asked for the materials all of the time.

Gypsum screeds resolve many of the issues that are apparent with sand cement screeds. The only one which we still have to resolve is drying, or at least generating an understanding in the market place about the importance of drying.

If you look to the european market e.g. Holland you will see that legislation is in place to outlaw the use of hand applied sand cement screeds. It really is only a matter of time untill similar legislation begins to come over to the UK.

There are major benefits to using anhydrite screeds for most aspects of the construction industry including health and safety, environmental, quality, strength, embodied energy, thermal and acoustic efficiency, time, design versatility, access to areas where sand cement simply will not perform, compatibility with modern intelligent heating controls and underfloor heating systems, availability etc etc etc.

Building systems such as the soundbar system and the Thermoplane system demand Gyvlon screeds in order to work. Modern methods of construction such as light weight steel, modular construction, cross laminated timber panel construction and traditional timber frame are all moving rapidly towards the use of flowing screed technology to resolve the issues within these sectors. The Shard in London would have been almost impossible to screed without the development of Gyvlon Sky by our company. Domestic bulk house building is moving allbeit more slowly towards systems which will only work with flowing screeds e.g. Screeded underfloor heating at first floor level. Using gypsum for this at 40mm helps to solve acoustic issues revolving around the move towards mandatory code level four. It also resolves the issues associated with fire safety in such dwellings. It also allows the house builder to improve plot density and reduction of plot size, embodied energy, cost etc etc.

I can assure you that Gyvlon screeds are not going away.

All we need is the end of the recession so people begin to build again.

 

[White Room]

I've always found in the past that new ideas in the construction sector are slow to catch on and takes time to except, do the manufacturers of these floors consult adhesive companys when in the process of development or is it more of a catch up basis.

 

[Diamond Pool Finishers]

well i just don't see all this gypsum ,all i ever see is traditional , and as you said in your first post they are causing tilers problems,and you will only have a limited amount of failures then the material will get a bad name and that will be that ,i have seen it happen time and time again in the pool industry with so called miracle materials , it stays wet to long, it has to have a lot of preparation by tilers, and it can't go into wet areas !! it don't sound to clever to me, the only benefit i can see is it can be poured, sorry Alan if we have to disagree as i really respect you as an advisor ,only time will tell who is right mate

 

[Ajax123]

I've always found in the past that new ideas in the construction sector are slow to catch on and takes time to except, do the manufacturers of these floors consult adhesive companys when in the process of development or is it more of a catch up basis.

We did not used to consult or really even talk t the adhesive and flooring suppliers. That was a mistake but hind sight is wonderfully accurate I find. It was also before my time with the company. I started at Lafarge about ten years ago now and quickly recognised the need for inter industry dialogue. I am regional vice president of the contract flooring association and work with the tile association. I also have regular and detailed contact with lots of adhesive manufacturers these days as a result of that recognition. my latest contact is through a tile supplier, tiletown in Derby, who has put me in touch with tile master adhesives who want to produce a gypsum based adhesive for our screeds.

 

[Ajax123]

well i just don't see all this gypsum ,all i ever see is traditional , and as you said in your first post they are causing tilers problems,and you will only have a limited amount of failures then the material will get a bad name and that will be that ,i have seen it happen time and time again in the pool industry with so called miracle materials , it stays wet to long, it has to have a lot of preparation by tilers, and it can't go into wet areas !! it don't sound to clever to me, the only benefit i can see is it can be poured, sorry Alan if we have to disagree as i really respect you as an advisor ,only time will tell who is right mate

In your game Dave you won't see much of it. it dries at the same rate as sand cement in the same conditions unless it is installed too deep. Prep is no different to what should happen with sand cement screeds I.e. clean it, vaccuum it, dry it, comission and run any underfloor hearing and then prime it if required followed by tiling. All of that should be done with sand cement as well. (priming is more critical when using cement based adhesive of coure).

Wet areas come down to semantics. It is designed for use in areas where it will receive a floor covering and for use in areas where it will not remain permanently wet. People often take this to mean bathrooms for example. This is not correct. You would not use it in a wet room shower as it is not really feasible to lay it to a fall. However I can say confidently thath there are several hundered thousands of bathrooms, kitchens and even a few swimming pools tha have been successfully screeded and covered using Gyvlon. I would not Recomend it for.a swimming pool because the management involved in keeping dry long term is hard work and there are easier products to manage. Sand cement or concrete is far more suitable for this application as you know. To say it can't be usedin wet areas requires a deffinition of a wet area. Really there are very few areas inside a building which will remain permanently wet.

 

[Ajax123]

Also bare in mind that not all of the screeds where I have visited failures have been on anhydrite.

 

[Dougs Third Go]

or we could all just stick to the good old trusted hand applied semi-dry standard floor screed and not have all this grief imo as i have said before the americans have done these gypsum screeds and rejected them in the main ,and mark my words the same will happen here :whistling:

at the end of the day Dave, gyvlon screeds are here for at least the foreseeable future, I'm just thankful that we have people like Alan trying to negate possible fixer errors.