Tiles sound hollow and are coming loose

[Newman21]

Good evening,

Apologies if this is the wrong forum to post this in, but I have an issue with some recently laid tiles and was hoping for some advice.

About a month ago we had approx. 50m2 of 60cm x 60cm porcelain tiles laid in our new kitchen, which is a solid concrete floor. Shortly after the tiles were laid, they sounded very hollow and a week or so later they started to rock every so slightly - not enough to crack the grout, but enough to make a taping noise when walked over.

The tiler has returned and pulled up 19 tiles - all off which were virtually clean, as in no glue had adhered to the tile, and has relaid. A few weeks later a further 17 have failed - at which point we are nearly half of the space.

Does anyone have any advice as to what would be the best way forward. We are pleased he has offered to come back again, but each time he lifts the tiles, we get small chips etc, and the floor is starting to look tired already, not to mention the dusk from angle grinding out all the grout.

Would his insurance cover him against adhesive failure? I'd rather not go down the court route, but equally having laid £3k worth of tiles, we are not best pleased!

Thank you

 

[Muff Tiler]

Do you know if the tiler back buttered the tile? Its common practice now on tiles that size. Only reason i say this as the tiles came up clean.

 

[Dan]

Yeah it sounds like either the wrong adhesive was used (needed a flexible one perhaps, that has more grip), or the tiles were dirty/dusty and not cleaned, or the adhesive mix was too dry, or water added to it once originally mixed which weakens a cement-based adhesive. Orrrrr - just a simple case of not back-buttering (so skimming the back of the tile as well as spreading adhesive on the floor)

Important question: WHICH ADHESIVE BRAND WAS USED, and what make of that brand? Did he mix it (so powder) or buy it in a tub? You got any of the bags lying around anywhere to check for us?

 

[Dave]

50mtrs.
were any expansion joints used ?
Was the skirting off to tile under ?
How old was the screed ? And screed type ?

 

[Dan]

Didn't notice the size!

 

[Newman21]

Morning all,

Thank you for your comments.

• No - he did not back butter the tiles
• The tiles were brand new, in box, so there shouldn't be dirty/dusty
• Skirting was off, and small 10mm gap has been left around the edge for expansion
• The floor in the old kitchen is solid concrete, the new area was a sand and cement screed, and a levelling screed was applied to blend the two. He also sealed the floor prior to tiling, I assume to reduce the absorption - though the glue has adhered very well to the floor, just not bonded to the tile.

The adhesive is an interesting one. He used Topps rapid set, as it we were in lockdown and that was all he had available. He usually uses Bal and is kicking himself he didn't hold out for it to come back in stock.

The new tiles he has now laid are with Bal, and so far, are holding up well.

He is taking it up with Topps as to the possible failing of the glue, which I hope he gets somewhere with - I guess the big question is, is this poor workmanship, poor product, poor luck! - and do we have any redress?

Thank you all again - all very helpful.

 

[Dave]

So you installed a new screed against the old one.
This can create expansion issues as you have 2 separate slabs. Can you post pics please.

 

[Newman21]

I could understand this if the tiles were failing across the joint, however they are failing mostly in the walkways where there is foot traffic, and this is a combination of the old concrete slab and new sand and cement screed floor.

Where the two floors join a levelling screed was applied - though they have failed across this area too.

Will try and upload some photos shortly.

 

[Bopster]

I'm going with poor technique, what was the weather at the time as if using rapid set im guessing the adhesive was going off too quickly. Even then not back buttering them is stupid

 

[Dan]

The tiles, although brand new (and mainly when brand new) tend to have transit wax on or biscuit dust from manufacturing.

Stones often need sealing. Ceramics sometimes need wiping. Porous tiles skimming to fill the holes.

Just because they're new it doesn't mean you can get 'em straight out the box and whack 'em down.

But as said above, the screed having no expansion joint where the two meet means if ones moving when the other isn't, the lateral forces can pop the tiles up. It wont be on the joint. Can be anywhere where the weak point in the tiling is. But the forces occur due to the lack of expansion joint.

Or so I believe. I'm not a tiler these days.

Wrong adhesive used perhaps IMO.

Did you get a few tiling quotes in? Is this person who did the job an actual tiler? Do they have a good reputation and / or qualifications or anything?

I doubt you'd win in court if you were trying to sue somebody who isn't a tiler that you got in to do tiling.

 

[Newman21]

Thanks again for your feedback.

It was spring, so not particularly warm, but agree the mix could have been too dry.

I got several quotes, his was in the middle, but generally seemed like a trustworthy guy. He is a professional tiler, with a registered tiling company, who I found on Checkatrade - all good reviews, and I cant really fault his setting out, tidiness etc., just the bloody tiles coming loose!!

 

[Dave]

I could understand this if the tiles were failing across the joint, however they are failing mostly in the walkways where there is foot traffic, and this is a combination of the old concrete slab and new sand and cement screed floor.

Where the two floors join a levelling screed was applied - though they have failed across this area too.

Will try and upload some photos shortly.

Its still a big floor with no expansion joint. Tenting can happen over a big floor area. I agree though it could also purely be a bad install.

 

[Dan]

Such a shame really. If you can get the adhesive company out they may be able to test the mix and things like that but it sounds like you've either got to keep sticking them down until they're all redone over time or just redo it if they are coming up clean.

Not sure.