Tiling Standards

[Matty A]

IMPORTANT CHANGES TO BS 5385-1 WALL AND FLOOR TILING​

Tiling Standards | BS 5385​

As part of the five-year review of British Standards and reflecting changes within the tiling industry since 2009 – BS 5385 Part 1: 2018 has now been published. One significant change made was to exclude the use of plywood as a background material for the direct fixing of ceramic wall and natural stone tiles.

Clause 6.1.2.7 Other sheets and boards (see also 6.2.3.3) now states:
“The use of sheets or boards that are subject to movement from changes in moisture content should be avoided. Plywood and other wood-based sheets or boards should not be used for direct tiling”.

A significant uplift in the use of tile backer boards and a wide variation in quality of plywood available on the market has provided a solid case for the removal of plywood from the standards.

David Wilson, UK Head of Technical Services a member of the TTA Technical Committee said: “Previously it was recognised in BS5385 Part 1: 2009 that tiling direct to plywood was possible, providing this was restricted to small areas and be “installed in such a way that they provide a [dimensional] stable and rigid background” the quality of plywood for tiling purposes has decreased significantly with cheaper imports flooding the market.

“While higher quality external grade plywood is still available – it is significantly more expensive.

“It is important to consider though that that wood is a hygroscopic material which means that its moisture content will change dependent upon any changes in the environmental conditions on site. Therefore, dimensional stability of wood-based boards cannot be assured there is always a risk to installing ceramic or natural stone tiles onto plywood or other wood-based sheets,
Another technical consideration for wall tiling is weight restrictions. Just as a side note at this point, if you don't have a clue what any of this is, then consider a tiling course, and research it well before paying any money. Plywood is deemed to have a maximum weight of tiling per m² of 30 kg compared to proprietary tile backing boards which generally are capable of supporting heavier weights per m² of tiling (As per table 3 of BS 5385-1: 2018).

British Wall and Floor Tiling Standards BS5385-1​

“A competitive tile backing board market means that prices are more attractive to tile fixers and contractors. This combined with the additional features and benefits of providing background for tiling which are dimensional stable and resistant to moisture and thermal movement. “

However, while plywood is not recommended as a background for direct wall tiling, it can still be used as a structural board when overlaid with a suitable tile backing board, particularly where installation of mechanical fixings is required e.g. for mesh backed natural stone where it is not possible to remove 75% or of the mesh backing.

Other changes to BS standards.

Previously in internal dry wall areas it was recommended that tile adhesive should cover a minimum of 50% coverage spread evenly over the back of the tile. However, driven by necessity, with the increase in the size and types of tiles i.e. larger formats and thin ceramic panels, now available of the market, BS 5385-1: 2018 advises: “Tiles with a surface area of less than 0.1 m², but which weigh more per square meter than 70% of the background’s capacity to carry the weight, should be solidly bedded e.g. the maximum weight of tile that can be supported by Gypsum plaster = 20 kg; whereas 9 mm thick porcelain tiles, which weigh approximately 18 kg/m², weigh more than 70% of 20 kg (14 kg) therefore, they should be solidly bedded regardless of their size”

British Tiling Standards included within the scope of BS 5385-1: 2018 are large format ceramic tiles, ceramic panels i.e. tiles with a surface area >1m² (any edge length >1200 mm) and thin tiles

i.e. ceramic tiles and panels with a panel thickness of ≤ 5.5 mm. To reflect this, additional changes have also been made in the minimum recommended grout joint width, dependent on the tile/panel size, e.g. the minimum grout widths vary by tile facial area – an example as follows:

• For tiles with a facial area of less than 0.1m² with no side > 600mm long, a minimum joint width of 2mm is required.
• Tiles with a facial area 0.1m² to 1m² with no side>1200mm long, a minimum joint width of 3 mm is required.

And

• Joints between ceramic panels should be increased pro-rata to panel size (e.g. for a 3m long ceramic panels the minimum required joint width between these panels is 5mm.

Not included in the scope of BS 5385-1: 2018 are:

• Natural Stone Slabs i.e. stone which is more than 12mm thick,
• Agglomerate stone,
• Metal, plastic resin, mirror or glass tiles of a similar construction

Note from Admin: We have collated most of the threads regarding tiling standards. Having one thread on the subject should help those out seeking advice regarding British Standards in Wall and Floor Tiling BS 5385

 

[Matty A]

what is the web site i just been on british standards online which i found through google and i still had to pay

 

[DHTiling]

Where can i find out about b.s relating to wall and floor tiling because i think it is a must that you know as much of your job as possible and as im new i dont know enough

access british standards website and you want b.s. 5385 versions 4 & 5 if my memory serves me correct.

 

[UKTT Darren]

The BS5385 is the Tiling Standards , i have them and payed £120 for them, they are just full of technical info that either you wouldnt understand or you dont need, came in handy for me when i was doing my assessors and level three, but apart from that i wouldnt bother, you will get what you need from BAL product guide as it has the fixings to different surfaces in, thats all you need to know

View attachment 75913

 

[The D]

British standards are they rules or guidelines? Just wondering what your opinion is.

 

[DHTiling]

Seen as tiling is not governed by a governing body as in not licenced like sparkys or gas guys so to speak then they are guidlines of such...unless they can be enforced then they are not rules.......
But we should try to stick to them as much as possible IMO....

 

[brian c]

i agree with Dave,but how many times do tilers refer to BS on a weekly basis etc...especially domestic but i presume that its different for commercial as site agents and architects etc are involved.Put it this way i have never had a customer quote to me any BS,unlike if i get a plumber for my gas boiler i will ask and request to see his corgi certificate.

 

[GazTech]

I would prefer if they were rules....but they are guidelines. I see some catastrophies in my occupation and hearts broken. The jobs that are done according to BS are at least safe, and are a good foundation for some kind of regulation. The rest is down to the integrity and skill of the person choosing work accepting them ,utilising and teaching by them, BS is all we have for now......Gaz

 

[White Room]

My girlfriend used to work for BS, She was working on the glass section and you would be amazed how many people would ring up checking the BS number on their double glazing to check that it was legal. Companys have to pay a yearly fee for the priviledge and the testing is stringent. The company she now works for is BS registered and they visit every year to check on health and safety. Just to finish of when visiting the tile show I was given a thing to hang round my neck with my badge on it, She made a comment that BS would,nt of allowed that because it would,nt break if it snagged or caught on something because it was around my neck.

 

[pjtiler]

I would prefer if they were rules....but they are guidelines. I see some catastrophies in my occupation and hearts broken. The jobs that are done according to BS are at least safe, and are a good foundation for some kind of regulation. The rest is down to the integrity and skill of the person choosing work accepting them ,utilising and teaching by them, BS is all we have for now......Gaz

you have your bal hat on there gaz
off the record
you know as well as me the BS is a load of *****
it changes day to day
you must have seen some of the crap tiles that carry the blessing of the BS label
travertine, B&Q for ex sample

 

[White Room]

To be honest pj I have never seen BS on a box of tiles but then I have never looked, Will now:huh2:

 

[pjtiler]

To be honest pj I have never seen BS on a box of tiles but then I have never looked, Will now:huh2:

tiles have to meet the BS kite mark to be sold in the UK
as far as i,m aware:yes:

 

[The D]

Personally I see the standards as a measuring stick if something goes wrong the stick is held up and if you don’t measure up you don’t have a leg to stand on. It is for protection the customers and yours

 

[MICK the Tiler]

I won't be a formal voter as I'm not familar with the in's and outs of BS, but in saying that an informed tiler is a smart tiler and if your new to the game you should purchase and study the standards to become familar with there contents.

Yes they are a guide and yes they are rules, but the rules will come into play if a matter goes to court, so the court will look at a particular standard as a benchmark to which the work has been carried out.

 

[pacman]

If you do a job for Mr and Mrs Blogs and they are not happy with your work they can take you to court if your work dos not conform to the British standards then you will loos so in that respect they are rules.

 

[Dan]

I vote rules, as when I tile they're rules. No problem can be presented to me that I can't get around sticking to the rules. After-all, it's not the tile I leave dodgy because the pipes in the way, it's the pipe I make dangerours by moving that and stick to MY rules - or the British Standard. KEEP YOUR TILES PRETTY!

 

[Spud]

bs 5385 part 1 £150 part 2 £110 part3 £110 part 4 £120 part5 £150 total around about £650-£700 for the full set why so expensive ?

 

[Mike]

does anyone know the british standard level variance for tiling? can't find it anywere. thanks

 

[anouskac]

Hi Here, need some help.
I've a customer that is arguing that the grout lines on her floor tiles are not parallel with both walls in her hallway, problem is her hallway walls are not straight, but she does not understand, she refuses to pay, thinking its a problem with the tiling. She is contacting the association of tilers though not sure what they can do???
Is there any standards or anything i can quote to her that explains this, as she does not understand and i need her to so i can get paid?
Thanks

 

[doug boardley]

welcome to TF Anouskac, how did you determine your centre line?

 

[hillhead]

:welcome:
how far out of parallel are the walls and again did you align to one of them???
Any other problems too?

 

[Alan.P]

Hard to give advice without seeing the job,have you any pictures, and as has been said, how far out are the walls running and was it possible to align to one wall or are they both way out ?

 

[lisamahey]

Hi,
I've posted her before and everyone was very friendly and helpful.
I am fighting a case with a tiler who did poor works for me. I am now at the final stage where the a final question is being asked.

I had a calcium sulphate Gyvlon screed laid on underfloor heating. It was left to dry for the specified time.

The tiler wiped over PVA and then laid tiles with no other preparation and now all tiles are hollow.

The tiler says it's my fault as I should of told him which screed was used and how it should have been prepped. My arguement is that I am not a specialist in tiling and the responsibility lies with him to know what products he was working with and prepare the floors correctly ie; sanding of the laitence etc.

TTA states floors should be laid with British Standards. Does anybody have a document form TTA or British Standards that states the tiler is responsible for knowing these fact and/or preparing properly and not myself? It's a minefield when you're not sure what you're looking for.
The tiler says it's not his fault as I didn't inform it was a specialist screed. I say I had no idea that different screeds require different preparation as I am not from the industry and he should have advised me on this.

If I can quote from either of these documents I think I can finally win this after spending £8k and 6 months of tiresome upset.

Thank you in advance
Lisa

 

[jay]

Hi yes do remember http://www.tilersforums.com/new-mem...-please-post496254.html?highlight=#post496254 not sure were you stand but someone should have a copy of the standards.just one question was the floor heating commissioned before tiles were laid
thanks

 

[DHTiling]

At present there are no BS standards for calcium substrates but BS 8204 screed installations and BS 8203 for moisture levels to receive floor coverings do cover these screeds.

The tiling side is BS 5385 but again i don't think tiling to calcium substrates has been added yet but there is info on the drying times and commissioning of heated screeds and the RH readings that should be achieved before tiling can commence etc.

Either way PVA is not a suitable primer....

 

[kilty55]

hi lisa at the end of the day its the tilers responsibilty to check the substrate id adequate for tiling onto and how to deal with it accordingly

not the customers.

good luck i hope it gets sorted

 

[Ajax123]

british standards do not usually dictate who is responsible for different parts of a contract and they certainly don't dictate that a particular tradesman e.g. in ths case the tiler, must have the necessary knowledge to do their job.

This particular aspect is dealt with in contract law and I beleive specifically under the provision of goods and services legislation which says that a contractor must have the necessary expertise and skill to carry out a contract correctly otherwise he will be deemed to have been negligent in accepting the contract in the first place.

You are presumably a private householder and as such cannot demonstrate expertise in tiling a floor. Whilst it is reasonable to expect that you would have said to the tiler that you wanted him to tile your floor. You would nbot be expected to know that there are different types of floor necessarily and that each has its own requirements in terms of preparation.

It is making my blood boil somewhat today because this is one of numerous occasions in the recent few weeks that I have come across tiles delaminating from a screed due to the tiler "not knowing what sort of screed it was". Sorry but this is fundamental to operating a skilled trade. All tilers these days ought to know that there are many types of screed around and each needs to be treated in its own way. Calcium sulphate screeds have been around for a long long time and the information about them is easily available.

I have run numerous training sessions in the last few years, one even for members of this forum, for tilers and I always say that, when a client asks you to tile a screed, the first question you should ask is not how much are you going to pay me and when can I start but "what type of screed is it"...... It is not a reasonable excuse and would certainly not form a defence in law for a tiler to say "I did not know what sort of screed it was" ..he should know!!! Likewise it would not be a suitable defence for a client to say "I don't know what sort of screed it is either" - if the tiler has asked and you have mis informed him then it is in my opinion your fault, if however he has not asked the question then he should foot the bill.......either way PVA is not a suitable primer for a floor screed to be tiled.

You could get an independent assesment to help you but this would cost more money still but my advice would be to write to your tiler and say that you hold him responsible and that he should come and fix the problem. put some timescales on it and then see what happens. If nothing happens seek legal advice about running it through the small claims court.

The tiling association have a document available called tiling to calcium sulphate screeds which they can no doubt send to you. It is in the process of re writing at the moment and the old document is a little out of date but it still covers the essentials.

 

[Carpello]

Hi All,

Can anyone tell me the official thickness of board to be used in an upstatirs bathroom, prior to floor tiles going down.
I have a job that involves bringing existing tiles up (and possibly the board with it) and putting new ones down.
The existing floor has signs of cracked grout so was intending on potentially having to replace the board with Hardi backer.......but at what thickness? Im guessing 12mm would be the official standard??

Anyone done a similar job? and reccomend a tile board other than Hardi to use?

Cheers

 

[Time's Ran Out]

From what I understand the minimum plywood required for BS standards is 15mm wbp. If the floorboards at present are in sound and deflection free condition, I'd consider 9mm plywood with an overlay of 6mm Hardie tile backer boards, making sure you cross cover all the plywood joints.

 

[grumpygrouter]

From a building point of view, I understand that the board thickness is dependent on the joist spacing - i.e 600mm joists will have 22mm boards and 400mm joists can have 18mm boards though I have to confess that this is only info I have "picked up" along the way from reading some construction specs.

As the other guys have said, for overboarding for tiling purposes then 15mm is the BS minimum thickness.