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Thickness wouldn't make much of a difference, only to the time it takes to reach its top temperature. It would be on the assumption that the tile at the overall thickness would heat up evenly. I know thats not 100% realistic as one side would heat up quicker than the other, but the difference is neglegable and wouldn't alter the overall maximum possible expansion.
If you had a 1m room, with a single 1m slab, starting at 20oc rising to 34, gives a maximum expansion of 0.056mm. Still a very tiny and almost insignificant amount.
Even if it was divided into smaller porcelain tiles, the expansion % would be at the same but you would have more grout joints to buffer the effect. so if you had 10 98x98 with 2mm grout joints each tile would expand by 0.0056mm...... which is naff all.
Thats the one. We probably have different definitions of fascinating
Easy when you know the equation but still need to know the CoLTE of a particular material. Basic ones I work off are as follows. But as you can imagine, its not something I need to use very often:
Porcelain 4
Ceramic 6
Limestone 8
Marble upto 14
Granite 8.5
Plaster 17
Concrete 14
Wood variations 30 average
Thanks jcrtiling. I agree the tiling will definitely be the most expensive as it will require removal and re-installation of goods as a consequence of needing to be re-tiled anyway. The trouble is that small claims court only covers up to £750 but the tile association with VAT included is £900
The builder doesn't have anything in his terms so i think we would have to tell them which inspection we would agree to. I've just contacted the BIKBBI and they said they don't know if their inspectors use Tile association of BSI standards when doing their inspection. I asked about dot and dab and she hadn't even heard of it although i expect she is in admin rather than an inspector herself !
Just concerned their inspectors might think dot and dab is acceptable or wouldn't know the current industry standards
Yes - agree. We are a little worried that maybe the builder knows someone there or knows the local inspector or something. This builder seems to be quite well known in the local area (not in a good way). Just also concerned that we want someone who can genuinely inspect tile issues thoroughly. I don't think the builder is a member but i do think maybe he has contacts either there or on the ground.
No way is it. The lipping between tiles should be no more than 1mm. It looks like you have at least 2mm there in some places. Totally unacceptable. The standards they should be working to are BS5385 Part 1. Not some fictional standards they have plucked out of a magical unicorns bum:
"7.1.9.2 Across joints
There should be no appreciable difference in level across joints (commonly known as "lipping") and the maximum deviation between tile surfaces either side of the joint, including movement joints, should be as follows.
a) Joints less than 6 mm wide, 1 mm.
b) Joints 6 mm or more wide, 2mm."
You have to get them back and give them the opportunity to correct their work. If they refuse, well, we'll have to cross that bridge if/when it comes to it.
Discuss Tiling Standards in the Tilers' Talk - All Other Countries area at TilersForums.com.
I
Italy
here the minimum allowed is 2mm
T
Tile Shop
Nerd alert!!! INCOMING!
Based on the CoLTE of porcelain (4 in general) if a room is 20oC normally and the temp rises to 30oC when the bathroom, underfloor heating or whatever is in use, a 2400x1200 porcelain tile will expand to 2400.096 x 1200.048mm. Would that 0.096 x 0.048 of a millimetre make a difference? 1mm joints might struggle to buffer it, maybe.... but 2-3mm with flexi grout, flexi adhesive and appropriate expansion joints, shouldn't cause much of a problem but that also depends on their deformability.
Also need to bare in mind whether or not the substrate is subject to the same temperature fluctuations and how much they are likely to expand. for the same amount of plaster (2.4m) for example it will expand by 0.408mm.
IMO British standards are a little on the safe side, but not massively. I can see why they thought a need to amend. But the trouble is all the manufactures say their products are only guaranteed if used in line with the current standards. Ultimately if anything goes wrong, the tiler gets the blame, whether they were/weren't aware of the requirements or someone else requested it.
Based on the CoLTE of porcelain (4 in general) if a room is 20oC normally and the temp rises to 30oC when the bathroom, underfloor heating or whatever is in use, a 2400x1200 porcelain tile will expand to 2400.096 x 1200.048mm. Would that 0.096 x 0.048 of a millimetre make a difference? 1mm joints might struggle to buffer it, maybe.... but 2-3mm with flexi grout, flexi adhesive and appropriate expansion joints, shouldn't cause much of a problem but that also depends on their deformability.
Also need to bare in mind whether or not the substrate is subject to the same temperature fluctuations and how much they are likely to expand. for the same amount of plaster (2.4m) for example it will expand by 0.408mm.
IMO British standards are a little on the safe side, but not massively. I can see why they thought a need to amend. But the trouble is all the manufactures say their products are only guaranteed if used in line with the current standards. Ultimately if anything goes wrong, the tiler gets the blame, whether they were/weren't aware of the requirements or someone else requested it.
T
Tile Shop
Thickness wouldn't make much of a difference, only to the time it takes to reach its top temperature. It would be on the assumption that the tile at the overall thickness would heat up evenly. I know thats not 100% realistic as one side would heat up quicker than the other, but the difference is neglegable and wouldn't alter the overall maximum possible expansion.
If you had a 1m room, with a single 1m slab, starting at 20oc rising to 34, gives a maximum expansion of 0.056mm. Still a very tiny and almost insignificant amount.
Even if it was divided into smaller porcelain tiles, the expansion % would be at the same but you would have more grout joints to buffer the effect. so if you had 10 98x98 with 2mm grout joints each tile would expand by 0.0056mm...... which is naff all.
T
Tile Shop
Coefficient of Linear thermal expansion?
I remember dealing with that for sheet lead. It’s fascinating stuff, kind of
Thats the one. We probably have different definitions of fascinating
Easy when you know the equation but still need to know the CoLTE of a particular material. Basic ones I work off are as follows. But as you can imagine, its not something I need to use very often:
Porcelain 4
Ceramic 6
Limestone 8
Marble upto 14
Granite 8.5
Plaster 17
Concrete 14
Wood variations 30 average
O
Old Mod
All true, but if standards are looking at expansion rates over a temperature range of zero degrees to
30 degrees C then is it possible they are justified in their findings?
(It’s late and have no intention of working the equation now)
The problem there is that it’s not a credible theory, typically materials that we install are already acclimatised, and if not, they should be, so if the residence is occupied, the tiles will not start at a temperature of zero degrees, they’ll probably already be 15 degrees and over.
This would be more in line with amounts of expansion mentioned above, and not from where standards may be taking their calculations from.
Just a thought.
It also happens to be the biggest and easiest get out clause in the trade.
30 degrees C then is it possible they are justified in their findings?
(It’s late and have no intention of working the equation now)
The problem there is that it’s not a credible theory, typically materials that we install are already acclimatised, and if not, they should be, so if the residence is occupied, the tiles will not start at a temperature of zero degrees, they’ll probably already be 15 degrees and over.
This would be more in line with amounts of expansion mentioned above, and not from where standards may be taking their calculations from.
Just a thought.
It also happens to be the biggest and easiest get out clause in the trade.
T
Tile Shop
The above examples i used were starting at 20 and BS would probably account for extra tolerance to be safe. The expansion is based on the difference in temp only which is closer to reality rather a "but what if" extreme. So for julians instance of ufh, going to 34, means the figure is calculated on the 14 degrees difference. If it started at zero and went up to 34, the expansion would be far greater........... Will work that one out in the morning ...zzzZZZ
...zzzZZZSoso
TF
Hello, we are currently in dispute with a builder over a poor bathroom installation which includes poor tiling and also poor fitting of goods.
The builder has all of a sudden asked that the British Institute of Kitchens Bedrooms and Bathrooms do an inspection. We were thinking the Tile association would be better but they cost a lot (750 plus VAT).
Does anyone have experience or dealings with BIKBBI and if so does anyone know if the standard of their inspections would conform to British standards and Tile association standards for tiling ?
Does anyone know anyone else or where else we could get an inspection done. The builder used dot and dab also but i understand that most inspections would not remove tiles off the walls ?
The builder has all of a sudden asked that the British Institute of Kitchens Bedrooms and Bathrooms do an inspection. We were thinking the Tile association would be better but they cost a lot (750 plus VAT).
Does anyone have experience or dealings with BIKBBI and if so does anyone know if the standard of their inspections would conform to British standards and Tile association standards for tiling ?
Does anyone know anyone else or where else we could get an inspection done. The builder used dot and dab also but i understand that most inspections would not remove tiles off the walls ?
D
Dumbo
Why dont you contact both associations and ask them about their inspections and what they cover. If it wasn't in your builders terms I believe they can't insist who does the inspection. The tta probably won't cover the instalation of goods but to be honest the tiling is probably going to be the most expensive part to correct .
W
Waluigi
Just had a quick look and it looks like a genuine organisation. I also took a look at installers registered in my area and how to apply to become a member. An annual fee is required. If the company you have been dealing with is a member of BIKBBI (rolls off the tongue that acronym doesn’t it?! ) then I’d be a little worried there is a conflict of interest there.
) then I’d be a little worried there is a conflict of interest there.
Last edited by a moderator:
Soso
TF
Thanks jcrtiling. I agree the tiling will definitely be the most expensive as it will require removal and re-installation of goods as a consequence of needing to be re-tiled anyway. The trouble is that small claims court only covers up to £750 but the tile association with VAT included is £900
The builder doesn't have anything in his terms so i think we would have to tell them which inspection we would agree to. I've just contacted the BIKBBI and they said they don't know if their inspectors use Tile association of BSI standards when doing their inspection. I asked about dot and dab and she hadn't even heard of it although i expect she is in admin rather than an inspector herself !
Just concerned their inspectors might think dot and dab is acceptable or wouldn't know the current industry standards
Soso
TF
Just had a quick look and it looks like a genuine organisation. I also took a look at installers registered in my area and how to apply to become a member. An annual fee is required. If the company you have been dealing with is a member of BIKBBI (rolls of the tongue that acronym doesn’t it?!
Yes - agree. We are a little worried that maybe the builder knows someone there or knows the local inspector or something. This builder seems to be quite well known in the local area (not in a good way). Just also concerned that we want someone who can genuinely inspect tile issues thoroughly. I don't think the builder is a member but i do think maybe he has contacts either there or on the ground.
O
Old Mod
Found this quite interesting, so with some help from @Paul C. this is what is contained within British Standards.
BS5385 part 1
"7.1.2 Bedding Materials
........ blah blah blah
Tiles should not be fixed using the dot and dab technique"
"7.2.1.6 Tile Joints
........ blah blah blah
Tiles should not be fixed using the dot and dab technique"
(why they put it again under tile joint, I have no idea)
Other than that it only mentions the methods to achieve as full contact as possible. no specifics.
This should weight the argument on your side.
BS5385 part 1
"7.1.2 Bedding Materials
........ blah blah blah
Tiles should not be fixed using the dot and dab technique"
"7.2.1.6 Tile Joints
........ blah blah blah
Tiles should not be fixed using the dot and dab technique"
(why they put it again under tile joint, I have no idea)
Other than that it only mentions the methods to achieve as full contact as possible. no specifics.
This should weight the argument on your side.
Ash205
TF
Morning all,
Have a question for the professionals out there
Just had my bathroom refurbished and everything was taken back down to brick etc , however whilst inspecting the work some of the tiling just looks really badly done
Now the question is am I being to picky or is this a bad job ? According to the company owners who did the job the work is within industry standards ?!
Have a question for the professionals out there
Just had my bathroom refurbished and everything was taken back down to brick etc , however whilst inspecting the work some of the tiling just looks really badly done
Now the question is am I being to picky or is this a bad job ? According to the company owners who did the job the work is within industry standards ?!
W
Waluigi
Back to brick then I’d hazard a guess that a board was dot and dabbed on? This is the perfect surface to get flat and Plumb so the tiling should be absolutely spot on which this is far from.
Is there any reason the whole bathroom was finished before this poor tiling was picked up on?
Shame it wasn’t noted sooner as it would’ve been easier to put a halt to the tiling works so a professional could be brought in.
Is there any reason the whole bathroom was finished before this poor tiling was picked up on?
Shame it wasn’t noted sooner as it would’ve been easier to put a halt to the tiling works so a professional could be brought in.
Andy Rhodes
TF
T
Tile Shop
No way is it. The lipping between tiles should be no more than 1mm. It looks like you have at least 2mm there in some places. Totally unacceptable. The standards they should be working to are BS5385 Part 1. Not some fictional standards they have plucked out of a magical unicorns bum:
"7.1.9.2 Across joints
There should be no appreciable difference in level across joints (commonly known as "lipping") and the maximum deviation between tile surfaces either side of the joint, including movement joints, should be as follows.
a) Joints less than 6 mm wide, 1 mm.
b) Joints 6 mm or more wide, 2mm."
You have to get them back and give them the opportunity to correct their work. If they refuse, well, we'll have to cross that bridge if/when it comes to it.
Andy Rhodes
TF
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