Toilet Troubles

[biffta]

So I've had no luck finding a couple spare tiles to match the existing set, so looks like I'm gonna have to bite the bullet and redo the whole floor!

I've done my homework and know that I need to get some marine ply as it's wooden floorboards. I've started picking up some tools and have just about decided on the new tile to go down. However, I've still got some concerns. Top of the list is the toilet!

The current tiles do not go underneath the toilet but the videos I've watched on youtube largely suggest lifting the whole unit out and then plonking it down on top of the tiles afterwards. I think this looks easier than trying to cut the tiles all around it.

But if I were to lay the toilet on top of the new tiles, it would be at a higher level than is currently. Would that lead to potential issues with the connection into the waste pipe?

cheers!

 

[peteablard]

Should be ok, worse case you can get flexible waste pipes

 

[Mike Mike]

I've had "toilet troubles" as well today. It's what comes of eating beans, curry, and falafel all in the same day.

 

[Martino]

As above, flexible waste and also flexible water feeds are awesome these days! i always use them :-D make fitting a back to wall toilet a doddle!

 

[doug boardley]

yep a flexible pan connector.

 

[biffta]

The flexi pipe looks like a it could be a winner, thanks!

 

[AliGage]

Sorry to contradict everyone. But i would not suggest a flexible pan connector. A simple offset pan connector will do.

1st question that needs to be asked is wether the waste comes up through the floor or straight out the wall, or at 90 degrees from the point of connection. I.E along in boxing prehaps to a waste stack that's in the corner of your bathroom.

So to cover all scenarios:

A) Waste pipe comes up through the floor. You could get a flexible 90 pan connector. However, i can't see you raising the WC enough to warrent this type. Most normal 90 degree pan connectors are generally longer than required. Replace the pan connector of rone exactly the same.

B) Waste pipe goes through the wall. An offset pan connector will sort this one. Change for one of these. The offset will allow you around 1 1/4" to 1 1/2"

c) Waste comes from the side. Again a 90 degree pan connector will surfice.

I'm only saying all this because firstly a flexible pan connector is the most expensive option (about £20.00 diy, £14.00 trade). Also, if a flexible connector is not installed correctly it's prone to blockages. You don't need to use one, avoid any potential problems by going for the cheaper solution

Hope that helps

 

[biffta]

Sorry to contradict everyone. But i would not suggest a flexible pan connector. A simple offset pan connector will do.
...

Hey Ali, thanks for the info. The waste pipe comes up through the floor so I guess that's option A.

Just to clarify, you suggesting that I try to re-use the existing one, see if it fits and if it doesn't get a similar one that does?

I've attached a picture of the pipe on the off chance it helps.

cheers.

 

[AliGage]

Can't quite tell on the picture but is that clay or cast drainage?

 

[biffta]

I found it quite hard to tell, but I reasonably sure it's clay. But as you can tell I'm not expert!

 

[AliGage]

You're going to have to knock the concrete out to change the pan connector. Do it by hand though, and be careful not to hit the clay. You don't want that to fracture!
Once you get it out you should find the clay pipe will narrow. If you imagine the shape of an egg cup as it goes underground. A standard 90 degree pan connector will be fine. Depending on what plumbing stores you have near you will depend on what brand you can get. I always use McAlpine. This should fit into the narrow neck of the "egg cup".

Tile the floor and offer up the pan when dry and walkable. Try the pan connector first and cut it down to suit to ensure the seal goes fully into the soil pipe but not too far. Ideally you want to fit the pan connector so the flange goes fully in, remains on the end of the pan connector but is still visible at the neck of the waste. You'll find not adjusting the connector will mean pushing the connector too far into the soil waste and will push through the seal.
Once you're happy with the seal, toilet position etc cement up around the waste. You can then connect the toilet correctly, screwing to the floor etc once set.

 

[biffta]

WOW! I've got to be honest that sounds like potentially more than I'd bargained for. Do you think I will more likely than not actually need to do this? I mean what are the odds that I can get away with simply removing the bowl and having it fit back into place?

I know you guys take the michael out of this guy quite a bit but I was kind of hoping I could do what he does around 2mins...

How to Tile a Bathroom Floor - YouTube

 

[AliGage]

Blimey GirlRacerRed you were up early this morning!!

Biffta, what i would do personally if you didn't want to do what i suggested before, and i must admit the first time i took a hammer a balsta to cement and claypipe like this i was very very nervous. You crack the claypipe under ground and your looking at a lot of work and expense to recitify. We are talking worse case scenario.
However, you could try fitting the wc pan back after and see if it goes back. You have got about 3/4" on your pan connector. You could try gaining another half by working the pan connector up. Be gentle though and not too much, because if you pull it out and the seal comes off the end it'll be lost and you'll have to revert to breaking the cement as stated before. Or wear a peg on your nose each time you visit the little boys room.
IF - the wc pan doesn't go back on after tiling purchase an offset pan connector an a length of 2"x1". Install the offset pan connector straight into the current 90 degree and install the wc. The timber is to baton the cistern. The offset will pull it forward from the wall so screw the baton where your current cistern fixings are then screw the cistern to the baton.
This method can be a little unsightly, but if you paint the timber edges you'll barely notice it's there once you've finished.

Good luck, and if you need anymore help or advice just ask.

 

[appletiler]

dont use marine ply , use " no more ply" good price easy to cut, easy to transport, always lift toilet. you know it makes sense. good luck

 

[martin1c]

An offset pan connector is the simple answer to your problem here. Got to say that the ceramic wastes never really look nice so if it was me I would be tempted to put a new back-to-wall pan in that would hide it all.

 

[biffta]

dont use marine ply , use " no more ply" good price easy to cut, easy to transport, always lift toilet. you know it makes sense. good luck

Thanks, this seems pretty good stuff.

You have got about 3/4" on your pan connector. You could try gaining another half by working the pan connector up. Be gentle though and not too much

Could you explain a little more about working it up? Do you basically just mean rocking it back and forth?

IF - the wc pan doesn't go back on after tiling purchase an offset pan connector an a length of 2"x1". Install the offset pan connector straight into the current 90 degree and install the wc. The timber is to baton the cistern. The offset will pull it forward from the wall so screw the baton where your current cistern fixings are then screw the cistern to the baton.

Ok this seems to make sense. I'm guessing I'll need to get some sort of special sealant to fix it altogether with?

My main worry with this is that the water pipe comes up vertically from the floor and will need to be bent a little to reflect the new position of the cistern. I'm guessing this might be an issue as I've no experience (or tools) with copper pipes.

 

[Muse2k8]

AliGage has it spot on I'm afraid. Avoid flexible pan connectors (imagine poo passing through the concertina bit... Gonna stick!) and if it's an old stack it's going to take a bit extra work I'm afraid.

 

[Muse2k8]

Oh as for the cold water feed you can use a flexible tap connector for that. Just remember you need to add an isolator valve

 

[biffta]

Oh as for the cold water feed you can use a flexible tap connector for that. Just remember you need to add an isolator valve

These look ideal! But why do I need that valve out of interest?

 

[AliGage]

I believe (although i can't find anything to back this up online just yet) but building regulations require a ballofix/service valve to be fitted to WC feeds. I don't believe it is required on taps and other pipework you'll find in your bathroom. Please don't quote me as i've never seen nor can i find anything to confirm this.

As good practice though i fit isolators on all pipework when i do a new installations. For a few reasons:

- It provides my customer with piece of mind that they can isolate something if there's a problem.
- Little water supply disruption during installation.
- If there is an issue i can talk them through isolation over the phone and the issue doesn't become critical. I.E i can have a life rather than bein gon call 24/7
- During installation i may have to take items such as toilets in and out whilst working. An iso' saves the need for shutting off the main water.

In your instance with your project - you'll have a stroke of luck if you get that toilet installed without any minor water issues at all. Especially as you're trying to use an exsisting/old waste. Seals might not sit correctly, may get twisted etc. It's easier to isolate at the WC rather than running up and downstairs or maybe even out in the road to turn the water off.

I'm starting to waffle now. I just see it as making life easier and good practice to put them on all pipework runs. But as i say i've always been assured that one on the WC feed is required by a regulation or standard.

 

[Muse2k8]

As AliGage said (again)

Its a building reg on a wc. Not needed on taps but I always put them on. Makes life easier when you need to do anything

 

[AliGage]

Thanks, this seems pretty good stuff.



Could you explain a little more about working it up? Do you basically just mean rocking it back and forth?



Ok this seems to make sense. I'm guessing I'll need to get some sort of special sealant to fix it altogether with?

My main worry with this is that the water pipe comes up vertically from the floor and will need to be bent a little to reflect the new position of the cistern. I'm guessing this might be an issue as I've no experience (or tools) with copper pipes.

Hi Biffta,

I got your PM, is this the post you're refering to?

With regards to the pan connector and shifting it up a bit. Pull straight up and twist left to right, right to left.

Second question about the offset pan connector. No sealant required. There's a rubber o ring seal all round the inside of the P type pan connector, and a finned seal on the offset pan connector. These seals have to be good and positioned correctly. Don't be tempted to appy any sealant on this connection. Because if the seals on it aren't holding water then the silicone or whatever you use will soon deteriorate after 6 litres of water have been sent down it 10-15 times a day over a few months.
Smear a bit of washing up liquid over each seal, push them together and it'll be perfect.

Last question the supply feed to the cistern? Purchase a flexible tap connector. 300mm long, 15mm compression with isolater one end and 1/2" tap connector the other. Try and find one with a rubber seal in the tap connector end and not one with a fibre washer (red or green, feels like cardboard).
You'll also need a 15mm pipe slice, a set of grips and a 10" adjustable. Then:
Turn your mains water off, run all cold taps, and flush the toilet.
Fitting the flexi tap connector should be self explainatory. If you have a plastic thread on the cistern DON'T over tighten and hold the internals still as you do. The flexi's with rubber seals can pretty much be hand tight. That's why i find them better than fibre washers. Make sure you hold the flexi up to mark where to cut your pipework, don't leave it too short!
Once all connected turn your water on and then your taps off. If you have any probems from here on in you have an isolator on the toilet.

Hope this helps.

 

[biffta]

Hey Ali, yeah that's very helpful thanks!

 

[AliGage]

No problem, glad i could help

 

[Dan]

Just bumping some of the older popular (sometimes not so popular) threads. Probably wont be current discussion these days but I just need to do it. So just ignore the thread if it's not current for you.