Discuss Ultra thin porcelain tiles de bonding in the Canada Tile Advice area at TilersForums.com.

Dan

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Staffordshire, UK
Bought on behalf of client Bal PTB for floors & Bal flex fibre plus for walls from Topps Tiles & invoiced customer. Was bulk buying to obtain better prices. At the very end of the job, Topps were no longer doing the multi offer on the Bal adhesives but were doing it on Topps adhesives. As I only needed one bag to complete the final bit of wall tiling but would need more for the future stage of works being the kitchen (which i never ended up doing), it was agreed to buy the Topps adhesive instead in bulk.
TTA saw the bags of Topps tiles adhesive and just assumed that this was used on all the walls and floors everywhere.
TTA also assumed a solid ground floor shower room floor tiling was tiled onto a solid screed, when, in fact it was levelled with Hardi backer boards.
Client was short of tiles on every room and needed to buy more. However, one room (an en-suite bathroom floor) the client failed to buy more tiles needed, as he was told by his supplier that they did not have any more from the same batch.
As only 1 full tile was needed which would be seen plus various others needed beneath a bath that wouldn't be seen, I was asked to use a discarded cracked tile. The TTA assumes this cracked tile occurred since completion but it obviously didn't and you can see the floor grout within the crack.
TTA report continually mentions that no expansion joints were used but all wall and floor areas were far below 5m
TTA report criticises a wall that was not perfectly level showing a photo using a spirit level but as far as I am aware, there is nothing within the standards that all existing walls must be made perfectly level. Nothing was fixed to this wall other than a towel rail radiator, which had adjustable brackets to ensure that it was perfectly level despite the wall.
Walls are meant to be within 3mm.

So it says in the British Standards that if you put a 3 meter straight edge on a wall, there should not be a gap bigger than 3mm (I think) over that distance.

I'm assuming that's the photo you are talking about.

It's impossible in a real world to be fair.

Whoever came up with that rule didn't tile a wall in a house for sure.
 
D

Deleted member 52728

I'm in the middle of my thoughts on this one. on one hand, I am sympathetic for the stress you and your wife are going through. The amount they are trying to claim is totally inappropriate and disproportionate in my opinion. And as above, by law, they cannot make any claim against you unless they have given you the opportunity to resolve and you refuse.

But this is a specialised tiling project. Not one I would personally suggest a plumber take on without sufficient training specifically in thin porcelain and the correct knowledge of what preparation is required, no matter how much the customer leaned on you. Hindsight is a wonderful thing, and in hindsight, you'd have walked away on the understanding that you yourself knew before you had started, you were not experienced enough to take it on.

Only the wall fixing code of practice (BS5385 Part1) was updated to eliminate ply as a suitable substrate. But for floors, 9mm ply is still not recommended as per BS5385 Part 3:2014 and never has been in past editions as far as I can recall. WPB ply of 15mm minimum thickness, screwed at 300mm intervals, is still allowed for floors although cement board would still be a better option. And for thin tiles, I'd be more comfortable with using 12mm Hardie instead of 6mm, purely for the rigidity required for the type of tile being used.

As above, for Ditra, the minimum tile thickness allowed is 5.5mm (as per Schluter's Ditra25 installation instructions). So in the knowledge that the tiles should have been between 4.8 and 5.5mm, fixing on Ditra was a significant risk. Before fixing, the tiles should have been inspected to ensure they are of suitable dimension/thickness for installation on the intended prep, before possibly going back to the supplier to resolve if the were not fit for the specific installation, or adjust the preparation method to suit (an alternative decoupler for example, or not plywood). If they were only 3.8mm you may have had a case for false advertising or being given incorrect information, but you've fitted them now, you've accepted them for what they are. By law, the supplier or factory is under no obligation to provide a resolution once the product is used, although they may offer assistance with a replacement product as goodwill.

Thin porcelain tiles are quite bendy over the length/width of a tile. I remember an image that someone posted a while back showing how flexible a 1200x600 can be under force. The adhesive is not designed to stretch to that extent, so under point loading, if the floor is not braced sufficiently or under the Ditra compressing, you are at risk of the adhesive shearing around the area of pressure.

If you can get it in writing from BAL or Schluter that the tiles were suitable to lay on Ditra, and 9mm ply, you may have some form of defence, but I fear even they would struggle against the TTA as they are both members, and BAL's head of technical is on the TTA's board of directors.

Although you haven't made it easy for yourself, I do wish you all the best in getting this sorted.

Thank you very much for taking your time to respond. It really is quite humbling and I am getting more answers to questions on this forum that anywhere else, including my solicitors, who I am paying £270 an hour plus VAT.
My solicitor is adamant than the customer does not have to give me the opportunity to put things right, especially when he has a TTA report stating that a tap test assumes all tiles may have debonded. Only 2 wall tiles in 3 bathrooms have moved, there does not appear to be any signs of movement to any floor tiles at all so I think that the Ditra 25 is fine.
I appreciate that Ditra 25 requires tiles at least 5.5mm and I did not measure them as I did not supply them, I also did not own or carry a digital caliper, but have bought one since.
Both of the massively expensive quotes that the customer has obtained from large organisations both also specify using the Ditra 25 with the replacement tiles!

Despite my email contract stating that I must be informed of all aspects of bathroom products/tiles etc that is intended to be fitted before starting works, so that I could ensure that adequate time and costs are allowed to protect both parties and indeed that I was familiar or skilled to fit whatever was being supplied, the customer NEVER provided this information, despite various reminders and requests. His response was always "well it is what it is"
As the first stage of works was undertaking the heating & hot water, pressure boosting, water softener etc, which would take a few weeks as it was a big property on 3 floors plus cellar, I had to remove one bathroom upstairs and take up the floor to adapt all hot & cold pipes plus install new heating pipes for different zones, so in effect, I had already started on 1 bathroom without still knowing what was going to be fitted.
As you say hindsight is a wonderful thing and being a trusting person I have always got on well with customers but this client seemed hell bent on not giving me any information at all. I never found out who the tile supplier was until I received the legal papers in the post.
The boxes containing the tiles said Porcelobobo or similar but they were supplied by Porcel-thin.com in Rotherhithe London
The tiles are manufactured in the far east and imported by Porcel-thin.com
I first contacted Ray Smith the MD of Porcel-thin after receiving the TTA report and stated that I have 3.81mm tiles but he immediately said that they couldn't possibly be his tiles as all their tiles range from 4.8 to 5.5mm. He assumed that they were his competitors tiles which are cheaper mesh backed and advised me to avoid them as they would be too fragile and possibly lead to de-bonding!
When I phoned him a second time and made it clear that Porcel-thin had supplied the tiles, he changed his position stating that the tiles would be fine, although he still didn't believe that they could possibly be as thin as 3.81mm.

One company that I called, when searching for a tile expert, advised me to check if the tiles were CE certified, which they are, however all tiles sent for testing were between 4.78 to 4.93, therefore the tiles I was using were up to almost 30% thinner than those sent for CE testing.
The really annoying thing is that Porcel-thin show on their web-site that he provides free in-house training, taking just a couple of hours.
Had I known in advance, I could easily have attended and learnt more about these specialist tiles, rather than learn on the job

Looking back, I think that I have been played all along
As for what happens now, I'm advised to make a Part 36 offer which, if is accepted, will put an end to the matter before Court costs and barristers costs spiral out of control, although if i do this, i am also agreeing to pay all his costs, including expert fees for the past year.

I have and have always had public liability insurance of £10m but I do not know anyone other than doctors, architects etc that have professional indemnity insurance, which, when started must continue for 6 years regardless if you stop trading.
I would urge everyone to simply set up a limited company
 
D

Deleted member 52728

I've only read this quickly . But firstly are they suggesting topps adhesive is sub standard if they are im sure as a member of the tta topps would like to hear this .
Did you grout the corners of the room or use a Silicon joint .
Silicon to edges, although to be fair some grout did get in as well when spreading
[automerge]1568314727[/automerge]
Walls are meant to be within 3mm.

So it says in the British Standards that if you put a 3 meter straight edge on a wall, there should not be a gap bigger than 3mm (I think) over that distance.

I'm assuming that's the photo you are talking about.

It's impossible in a real world to be fair.

Whoever came up with that rule didn't tile a wall in a house for sure.
This whole house had been underpinned the previous year. There was not a single straight and true wall within the entire house built in 1903, looks like I'm screwed!
 

Dan

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Staffordshire, UK
Silicon to edges, although to be fair some grout did get in as well when spreading
[automerge]1568314727[/automerge]

This whole house had been underpinned the previous year. There was not a single straight and true wall within the entire house built in 1903, looks like I'm screwed!
Do you have any tiling qualifications? They would go in your favour if you had.
 
D

Deleted member 52728

No tiling qualifications, I am a CIPHE master plumber, Gas safe registered, Water Board approved, Unvented registed, part P defined scope qualified, have an HNC in construction management, approved Which Trusted trader, CheckaTrade & Trustatrader member and have been installing bathrooms and tiling for 35 years. I am a perfectionist and tried in vain to research these tiles before starting the job but in October 2017 I couldn't find any information about them on the internet.
 

Dan

Admin
Staff member
5,091
1,323
Staffordshire, UK
No tiling qualifications, I am a CIPHE master plumber, Gas safe registered, Water Board approved, Unvented registed, part P defined scope qualified, have an HNC in construction management, approved Which Trusted trader, CheckaTrade & Trustatrader member and have been installing bathrooms and tiling for 35 years. I am a perfectionist and tried in vain to research these tiles before starting the job but in October 2017 I couldn't find any information about them on the internet.
Seems if you had paid TTA to be with them, you'd have been a TTA Tiler then and it perhaps would have been to spec. Seems ANY tiling done now if you're not a TTA member, isn't to spec?

So these tiles are for sure Porcel-Thin then?
 

Dan

Admin
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5,091
1,323
Staffordshire, UK
I just had to have a look at the CIPHE to see what qualifies someone as a master plumber and that category didn’t come up?

Let's not dwell on that eh. :)

Leave this thread about the tiling matey. We're not trying to prove anybody wrong here. We can either try help the guy by perhaps asking @Ray TT @ Porcel-Thin to chip in or somebody from TTA can come chip in. Or it's just going legal and we can't do anything about it.

Seems any tiling not done by a TTA member these days, isn't tiling to British Standard!

Can't believe I've only just found out pmsl

This is gonna make some blog posts for months!
 
D

Dumbo

A report is judged by standards set out by British standards . Now what we have to bear in mind that when building a house your local building control doesn't ask to see your shower after it is tanked and before it is tiled for building regs therefore british standards isn't even buildings regs so how can it be the be all and end all .
 

Dan

Admin
Staff member
5,091
1,323
Staffordshire, UK
A report is judged by standards set out by British standards . Now what we have to bear in mind that when building a house your local building control doesn't ask to see your shower after it is tanked and before it is tiled for building regs therefore british standards isn't even buildings regs so how can it be the be all and end all .
I'd hope it isn't mate.

What a sorry position to be in.

I'm hoping somebody with some knowledge can help the poor sod fight the TTA report.

Wondering what else is in it.

If it's just poor tiling then fair enough. What a shame though. But perhaps it'll stop some other people from tiling who think they are tilers.

If he's done it with the advice of the tile importer, or schluter, or whatever, or the adhesive firm, or whatever, then I would hope that some good comes of this and shows a TTA report can be beaten in court.

Because we get a lot of these knocking about and have done since 2007. Would like to see the outcome of one where the tiler is backed up for a change.
 

Dan

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5,091
1,323
Staffordshire, UK
Might hear a bit more because we know some of the people who's products have been used etc. So will see perhaps. I've asked for a copy of the report via PM. Not to post live but to have a read. Never read one before. They always seem to get it settled.

We'll see what happens eh. :)
 

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Ultra thin porcelain tiles de bonding
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