Uncoupling membrane vs no more ply, when & where?

[Scott HAZARD]

Hi everyone, newbie here, have had previous tiling experience and decided to give it another go, although this time self-employed. Have recently taken a crash course to scratch up on skills and give myself a better foundation of knowledge, cannot wait to get started.


I’m still a little confused with some subjects, I’m sure your good selves will know the answers.


1) Uncoupling membrane, used for lateral movement in a wooden/plywood and new concrete floors, old concrete without any appearance of cracks can go without the matt?

2) This leads straight into using no more ply on top of floorboards, instead of plywood, would this mean that you do not need the uncoupling membrane now?

3) If so, what size no more ply is recommended to install on a wooden floor? I’m sure; I’ve seen somewhere that you can install 6mm. But to hold this in your hand is flexible, I don’t see how this can be as strong as 12-18mm plywood.

4) Lastly, if a matt is installed, I’ve also read that you put standard non-flex adhesive down first and install the matt and flexi adhesive on top, is this right and what is the reason behind it?

 

[Dumbo]

Personally I always use ply to strengthen floor with membrane on top and use flexible adhesive top and bottom.
I know some members will disagree but it works for .

 

[Rookery]

I always use 6mm Hardie to over-board a timber floor, glued & screwed. I would only use an uncoupling membrane if I was fixing stone or on to a newish screed. Keraquick on every floor.

 

[Scott HAZARD]

Thanks for your replies, it seems that both ways are fine if neither of you, have any reported problems further down the line and is entirely down to the preference of who is installing it.

 

[Pro Tiler Tools]

Morning Scott,

We have used both ways when tiling in the past and we found it really depended on the quality of the floor we were tiling on.
If a timber floor had some bounce/flex in it we used to use a 12mm plywood screwed and glued every 150mm and then a de-coupling over the top.
If it was a fairly solid/strong timber floor we just used a de-coupling membrane (always fixed with a flexible adhesive).
Screed floors we only used de-coupling when the floor construction was a block and beam floor with a piled foundation as we found they tended to have more movement that a traditional construction floor.
Although now we are finding more and more tradesman and even the national house builders are using de-coupling on all types of floors when they are to be tiled and they have seen a huge decrease in the amount of repairs and faults.

I hope this helps you, and if i can help further or answer any questions please feel free to contact us 🙂

Sam

 

[Old Mod]

.
Although now we are finding more and more tradesman and even the national house builders are using de-coupling on all types of floors when they are to be tiled and they have seen a huge decrease in the amount of repairs and faults.

Do you think that coincides with the advent of the 1mm antifracture mats Sam?

 

[Pro Tiler Tools]

Do you think that coincides with the advent of the 1mm antifracture mats Sam?

Funny enough we were talking about that this week, possibly that's why these 1mm systems started appearing fairly rapidly. We know of one large tiling firm who used one of the 1mm polystyrene anti fracture mats specified by one of the national house builders (this was roughly 3 years ago) they began to use it on all floors and have since had to replace 70 percent of the floors. So we aren't huge fans of these 1mm systems. Since the tiling firm and the national house builders have moved on to the Schluter and Dural matting systems and its no longer causing a problem.

 

[Old Mod]

1mm polystyrene anti fracture mats

Would that be polypropylene? 😀

Did they only ever try one particular system, do you have a theory as to why it wasn't successful Sam?

 

[Dumbo]

Would that be polypropylene? 😀

Did they only ever try one particular system, do you have a theory as to why it wasn't successful Sam?

I seen a mat that looks like polystyrene . Gray in colour It is made by norcros it is called permalayer

 

[Old Mod]

I seen a mat that looks like polystyrene . Gray in colour It is made by norcros it is called permalayer

True!

 

[Pro Tiler Tools]

I seen a mat that looks like polystyrene . Gray in colour It is made by norcros it is called permalayer

Its very similar to that stuff.

 

[Pro Tiler Tools]

Would that be polypropylene? 😀

Did they only ever try one particular system, do you have a theory as to why it wasn't successful Sam?

Im not sure if they tried more than the 1 system. When we spoke about the issue we both agreed that the 1mm couldn't provide enough lateral movement as its is made of 1 material not 2 like the Dural and Schluter systems, by having the 2 allows a certain amount of lateral movement between the fleece and the top of the matting, but that was just our opinions. I am sure people must use the 1mm systems with success otherwise they wouldn't still be selling them. Have you ever or currently use them?

🙂 Sam

 

[Old Mod]

Im not sure if they tried more than the 1 system. When we spoke about the issue we both agreed that the 1mm couldn't provide enough lateral movement as its is made of 1 material not 2 like the Dural and Schluter systems, by having the 2 allows a certain amount of lateral movement between the fleece and the top of the matting, but that was just our opinions. I am sure people must use the 1mm systems with success otherwise they wouldn't still be selling them. Have you ever or currently use them?

🙂 Sam

Yes mate, use them all the time with the thin porcelain, recommend it for all floors.
Ditra presently won't advise their matting for tiles under 6mm.
As most of the material we're fitting presently is under that we use the 1mm tilemaster mat.
From those that have been tried, we keep going back to that one in particular.

 

[Pro Tiler Tools]

Yes mate, use them all the time with the thin porcelain, recommend it for all floors.
Ditra presently won't advise their matting for tiles under 6mm.
As most of the material we're fitting presently is under that we use the 1mm tilemaster mat.
From those that have been tried, we keep going back to that one in particular.

Ah that's interesting to know, is it this one you use:

Anti-fracture Matting for Floors Subject to Limited Movement | Tilemaster Adhesives - http://www.tilemasteradhesives.co.uk/anti-fracture-mat/tilemaster-anti-fracture-mat

I will take a look into it. I personally haven't seen this one in the flesh is it like the BAL Rapid mat?

Sam

 

[Dumbo]

Most 1mm systems to my understanding are made of 3 layers to give that lateral movement . My local shop has just started selling codex which unlike bal can used for waterproofing as well and they say it is cheaper than rapid matt

 

[Old Mod]

I will take a look into it. I personally haven't seen this one in the flesh is it like the BAL Rapid mat?
Sam

Yeah that's the one Sam, no actually, Bal is very similar to Isomat, but Tilemaster's is more like a felt construction, much more like material in construction, so you have to hold it both sides or it collapses if you try and lay it by one edge.
It won't support itself if you hold it by just one edge.
thats a better description haha
It'll stretch fairly easily if you're not aware, but it adheres extremely well and it just feels more substancial than others, with no problems to date that we know of.

 

[Dumbo]

No problems to date that I now of . That what I tell my customers if something has failed and they don't tell me as far as I'm aware no problems to date .

 

[Old Mod]

No problems to date that I now of . That what I tell my customers if something has failed and they don't tell me as far as I'm aware no problems to date .

You might
I don't.
Believe me all problems with thin porcelain are reported back straight away.

 

[Pro Tiler Tools]

Ah see that looks like a different system to the 1mm ones i am talking about. Its strange as we normally hear of these things pretty quickly but we havent seen this one yet.

 

[Dumbo]

No problems to date that I now of . That what I tell my customers if something has failed and they don't tell me as far as I'm aware no problems to date .

Just going to re write this . No problems to date that i know of .That is what I tell my customers when discussing tiling to a tricky substrate . If customers don't tell me of failures then as far as I am aware no problems to date . I have walked in to many a house to look at new work and have seen tiles failing of previously done work by people and the customer is non the wiser. so if customer does not let tiler know he will be saying the exact same thing but some customers are not aware .

 

[Flintstone]

What do you class as a difficult substrate?

 

[Dumbo]

I didn't use the word difficult . Tricky , bouncing timber floors . Floating floors , walls with hanging plaster . Pretty much much anything that I have to put work into to bring it up to a standard that I will be happy to tile on without it failing I regard the biggest enemy of a tiler is a moving substrate .

 

[V Man]

I always use 6mm Hardie to over-board a timber floor, glued & screwed. I would only use an uncoupling membrane if I was fixing stone or on to a newish screed. Keraquick on every floor.

What primer you use (if any) on timber/chipoard floor before putting hardie down ?

 

[Ttt1601]

Anyone use this stuff before Kerakoll.com - http://products.kerakoll.com/catalogo_dett.asp?idp=6966

I umm "inherited" a couple of 80m rolls that were over ordered on a subby job I was on, I find it alright, used a lot of it now never had any issues

 

[One Day]

Can i just point out that tilemaster mat and BAL rapid mat are not single layer construction. Both offer far more than single materials such as mapeitex etc.