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I know that but i also know that it is not needed as a source of income as if it was about just that then we would have loads of sponsors for the same thing.. it is because dan used to be involved in the training industry and see's it as a requirement for members but getting back to the thread is it really beneficial for members or just the providers..?
Just about sums it up Andy.
I can't see it being any benefit to members tbh.
on the flip side of the coin.... we aint doing brain surgerry here, we are sticking clay squares to walls and floors!
It's the fact they saying that there is a shortage of trades and you earn £40,000 in a year which is the issue, times have changed.
Discuss Are short course providers diluting the tiling trade.? in the UK Tiling Forum area at TilersForums.com.
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DHTiling
I know that but i also know that it is not needed as a source of income as if it was about just that then we would have loads of sponsors for the same thing.. it is because dan used to be involved in the training industry and see's it as a requirement for members but getting back to the thread is it really beneficial for members or just the providers..?
learn how to tile in 2/4 weeks, earn 70k plus, get a micky mouse nvq, loads of work/jobs out there waiting to be done..........what aload off rubbish (insert stronger word there if i could)...
when i started i spent a whole year just grouting, then i was allowed to do the cuts, then the odd splash back, must of been 2 years before i was let loose on my first bathroom, but by then i new what to do inside out...
theres no fast track to learning any trade, and imho these courses should be for the DIY person only, that just wants to know the basics for his own benefit, or project...
when i started i spent a whole year just grouting, then i was allowed to do the cuts, then the odd splash back, must of been 2 years before i was let loose on my first bathroom, but by then i new what to do inside out...
theres no fast track to learning any trade, and imho these courses should be for the DIY person only, that just wants to know the basics for his own benefit, or project...
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Gazzer
I have said this before, I would love to know the actual figure s of the people that take a course and those of who are still tiling 6 -12 months later.
Lets face facts here, Its tough out there. I see many names on the forums online during the day ....names that shouldnt be there....they are not all having a day off. these are experienced guys with lots of trade contacts too.
Lets face facts here, Its tough out there. I see many names on the forums online during the day ....names that shouldnt be there....they are not all having a day off. these are experienced guys with lots of trade contacts too.
T
The Legend; Phil Hobson RIP
Just about sums it up Andy.
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Dougs Third Go
I can't see it being any benefit to members tbh.
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glasgow_tiler
same as andy, the first 2 years of my apprenticship was spent grouting, labouring, doing cuts and watching all kinds of jobs, big jobs to lil jobs being set out proparly. then gettin to tile wee splashbacks to your tradesman letting you tile a cpl of walls in a few bathrooms and so on, anyway no offence to ppl who do a 2-4 week course but no way duz it make you a tiler and there quite insulting to ppl who spend 4 yrs learning everything the real way. dont get me wrong some folks might turn themselfs into good tilers but that must be a small percentage of them
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charlie1
I do want to stick up for some of the people who done a short course though... because you have served apprenticeship does not mean you are or ever will be a good tradesmen... you can still be rough if you have no passion for what you are doing or if your generally not a very handy person with lazy attitude! What makes a good tiler?? Honest, hardworking, attention to detail and passion for the trade!
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DHTiling
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charlie1
I appreciate the help Darren from NETT gave me, more confidence than anything else... are they ripping anyone off? No, they say you could earn 40g per year.... its the fools who actually thinkk you are a tiler when you complete the course who need to think in the real world! If you come out the course with more questions than when they started who have half a chance! Ive seen many people doing the short course then when they come out, they just kinda know it all.... makes me laugh, its the ones who ask for my help with the right questions that i will give my time to
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henrywillicombe
basically these tiling course are aimed at idiots you cant learn to be good at anything in two weeks. are you actually going to say to your first customer youve done a two week tiling course. or your going to do a bathroom on price and make any money. because your two week course has made you able to tile to a standard and speed of a trained tiler. a fool and his money are easily parted.
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charlie1
on the flip side of the coin.... we aint doing brain surgerry here, we are sticking clay squares to walls and floors!
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The D
Ok I have been out of the training side of thing for a few years now and I think at one point in the game there was a need to get people in to all trades and quick but that time has passed and we live in a very different world now.
I was gob smacked to find out that one of these short course providers has there own C&G qualification that no one else can deliver. This winds me up on two levels first it is a diluted version of the old ICA which was in my opinion insufficient as it was so in my eyes that means the full C&G qualification is absolutely worthless. Then there is this thing that only they can deliver it. Now I am not saying any other provider would want to deliver it as there is the Diploma they can deliver but if the people that wrote the NVQ and the Diploma had the same attitude these providers would not have the credibility they have now so I find that a tad distasteful.
But to answer the question in no uncertain terms yes the trade is being diluted by short course providers.
I was gob smacked to find out that one of these short course providers has there own C&G qualification that no one else can deliver. This winds me up on two levels first it is a diluted version of the old ICA which was in my opinion insufficient as it was so in my eyes that means the full C&G qualification is absolutely worthless. Then there is this thing that only they can deliver it. Now I am not saying any other provider would want to deliver it as there is the Diploma they can deliver but if the people that wrote the NVQ and the Diploma had the same attitude these providers would not have the credibility they have now so I find that a tad distasteful.
But to answer the question in no uncertain terms yes the trade is being diluted by short course providers.
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White Room
It's the fact they saying that there is a shortage of trades and you earn £40,000 in a year which is the issue, times have changed.
I did the short course to get into this industry and I think the short courses probably are bad for the trade but, when I finished the the course I didn't think I would be able to earn 40k a year, I knew I had loads to learn, I knew I would be slow, I knew I'd not make much money at first, and I think if I'm honest I only thought I had about a 50% chance of succeeding. Because of all these factors I started by doing the friends and family's etc and I armed myself with all the knowledge I could, I would sit reading this forum for hours learning new things, tricks of the trade! I start my 5th year in January and touch wood , I'm going from strength to strength. I'm never out of work, mainly recommendations and other trades.
I don't think these courses arm people with enough info though on problems you come across, eg, uneven walls, floors etc.
But, you have to be a fool to think you can just walk into a new trade and be quality after a couple of weeks training, and, I'm guessing not many carry on after a month or 2. I was made redundant which made me more determined to do it right. I know I'm still learning but I reckon there is guys out there who have been tiling 20+ years (not on this forum) who do crap jobs because their not re educating themselves, the trade has moved forward from the days of 6x6 ceramics and some of these guys might benefit from a short course.
I don't think these courses arm people with enough info though on problems you come across, eg, uneven walls, floors etc.
But, you have to be a fool to think you can just walk into a new trade and be quality after a couple of weeks training, and, I'm guessing not many carry on after a month or 2. I was made redundant which made me more determined to do it right. I know I'm still learning but I reckon there is guys out there who have been tiling 20+ years (not on this forum) who do crap jobs because their not re educating themselves, the trade has moved forward from the days of 6x6 ceramics and some of these guys might benefit from a short course.
cam_low
TF
Yes, they possibly are but at least these people who pay for this week or twos knowledge are the ones who have a passion for it and want to learn the right way albeit crammed into a week.
Much better than the builder who calls himself a multi-trader and does a half arsed job on everything he tackles.
I am a product of a course and also working for a tiler for two years. I have had nothing but compliments on my work as I ensure everything is perfect as I'm OCD like that. I have set out and tiled full house floors, fixed all types of man made tiles, stones and believe I am a credit to the trade. My brother said I have my dad in me, he was a stonemason, a perfectionist also.
Had this forum not been here I wouldn't have struggled, I have rang my old employer. I've asked a few things over the last however many years I've been registered on here, got the answers I was looking for, but surely everyone here dishing out the advice is contributing to the dilution, maybe Darren should be paying you guys to further his tuition?!
Much better than the builder who calls himself a multi-trader and does a half arsed job on everything he tackles.
I am a product of a course and also working for a tiler for two years. I have had nothing but compliments on my work as I ensure everything is perfect as I'm OCD like that. I have set out and tiled full house floors, fixed all types of man made tiles, stones and believe I am a credit to the trade. My brother said I have my dad in me, he was a stonemason, a perfectionist also.
Had this forum not been here I wouldn't have struggled, I have rang my old employer. I've asked a few things over the last however many years I've been registered on here, got the answers I was looking for, but surely everyone here dishing out the advice is contributing to the dilution, maybe Darren should be paying you guys to further his tuition?!
can i just say fantastic thread and some very interesting opinions!
not sure how to start my reply off as there is lots of different scenarios involved imo but heres my take on things and my background
i was a chef and eventually got dissilusioned with my trade with skill dilution,exploitation and long hours and crap pay to meet what iw as doing...still i started off as keen as mustard and regularly worked 80 hours a week for 50 quid during my apprenticeship i served...i loved it and hated it at the same time but it made me a damn good chef and also i was lucky enough to be trained in classical cooking before things began to change,you might think this is irreleavant to the thread in hand but its not its exactly the same
i was passionate as they come about my old trade before changes began to happen which disheartned me and many skills i took pride in dissapeared from the kitchens so i understand where the apprentice trained old school guys are coming from.
i am not an apprentice trained tiler,i was looking for a trade /job that offered me expression/self input/art/job satisfaction....it was not a case of money that i left my trade but satisfaction,,,i had thought about tiling as it interested me and i looked into it for almost a year..i chose a venue and visited them and chatted to the owner/tutor
i booked a course with them just to see how i got on and to see if i liked it.
the course did not ram any notions of you will earn 40k a year down my neck or anything like that infact they were quite open about it being hard to break into and succeed
they taught me a lot as a newbie in that period of time and there after course help was 2nd to none as was this place without tf i would not have succeeded
i think most of the trainees do not end up running tiling companies to be honest from what i have heard and from my own experience in life thats all up to the person themselves
i have found the building trade very hard nut to crack,contacts hard to find,customers even harder to deal with,suppliers difficult to trust,jobs scarce to come by and skills hard to hone but if you have the grit to work at it you can succeed
many times i have felt like jacking it,and considering i have ran my company through the recession and i am still succeeding then it tells you it can be done
but expect to live ,breath and xxxx tiling for the 1st 10 years of your trade minimum because thats what it will take you to succeed
can you make 40k a year the answer is yes........but you better expect to work yourself like never before for it
can you handle working 100 hours a week for 4 months solid then having no work for 2 months after it...ask yourself these questions before you go into ti because this is the reality of it atm especially if you have a family to support it is seriously hard work
i guess every training co is different so not all can be compared the same as i said its about the determination and skill of the individual
is there work/projects that i could not tackle by myself or take on the answer is yes i have no issues with admitting that i know what we can do and what we cant and that is fine with me,the courses will give you an insight into what it may be like to wrk in the industry on a domestic scale imo
once the course is complete you will need to back ip up with further training.and many many thousands of hours of learning of the trade on places like tilers forum etc to develop yourself as you progress
not sure how to start my reply off as there is lots of different scenarios involved imo but heres my take on things and my background
i was a chef and eventually got dissilusioned with my trade with skill dilution,exploitation and long hours and crap pay to meet what iw as doing...still i started off as keen as mustard and regularly worked 80 hours a week for 50 quid during my apprenticeship i served...i loved it and hated it at the same time but it made me a damn good chef and also i was lucky enough to be trained in classical cooking before things began to change,you might think this is irreleavant to the thread in hand but its not its exactly the same
i was passionate as they come about my old trade before changes began to happen which disheartned me and many skills i took pride in dissapeared from the kitchens so i understand where the apprentice trained old school guys are coming from.
i am not an apprentice trained tiler,i was looking for a trade /job that offered me expression/self input/art/job satisfaction....it was not a case of money that i left my trade but satisfaction,,,i had thought about tiling as it interested me and i looked into it for almost a year..i chose a venue and visited them and chatted to the owner/tutor
i booked a course with them just to see how i got on and to see if i liked it.
the course did not ram any notions of you will earn 40k a year down my neck or anything like that infact they were quite open about it being hard to break into and succeed
they taught me a lot as a newbie in that period of time and there after course help was 2nd to none as was this place without tf i would not have succeeded
i think most of the trainees do not end up running tiling companies to be honest from what i have heard and from my own experience in life thats all up to the person themselves
i have found the building trade very hard nut to crack,contacts hard to find,customers even harder to deal with,suppliers difficult to trust,jobs scarce to come by and skills hard to hone but if you have the grit to work at it you can succeed
many times i have felt like jacking it,and considering i have ran my company through the recession and i am still succeeding then it tells you it can be done
but expect to live ,breath and xxxx tiling for the 1st 10 years of your trade minimum because thats what it will take you to succeed
can you make 40k a year the answer is yes........but you better expect to work yourself like never before for it
can you handle working 100 hours a week for 4 months solid then having no work for 2 months after it...ask yourself these questions before you go into ti because this is the reality of it atm especially if you have a family to support it is seriously hard work
i guess every training co is different so not all can be compared the same as i said its about the determination and skill of the individual
is there work/projects that i could not tackle by myself or take on the answer is yes i have no issues with admitting that i know what we can do and what we cant and that is fine with me,the courses will give you an insight into what it may be like to wrk in the industry on a domestic scale imo
once the course is complete you will need to back ip up with further training.and many many thousands of hours of learning of the trade on places like tilers forum etc to develop yourself as you progress
i guess my opinion is that the providors are giving you guys who are willing and have the skills and they are also giving you muppets who have no idea and who will never have the skillls to contend with,from my point of veiw though and a question to the apprentice trained lads do these people threaten your business and how?
are they skilled enough to take work away from you? cant see it imo
are they fast enought to take work away from you on meterage rates...cant see it
how are they a threat? is it them thats the threat or is it the customer looking for a cheap price?
are they skilled enough to take work away from you? cant see it imo
are they fast enought to take work away from you on meterage rates...cant see it
how are they a threat? is it them thats the threat or is it the customer looking for a cheap price?
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Colour Republic
They should be renamed taster courses not training courses. It's impossible to equip someone for the real world working alone in 12 months let alone 2-6 weeks.
Of course they damage the industry but then so do many other factors, the fact is though, nothing will change. So it no longer bothers me, well it does in the sense it gives trades a bad name but I doesn't bother me in that it effects my business as it rarely does. There will always be a market where someone is willing to employ someone who hasn't got a clue what they are doing, either because they are shopping on price (you can do sweet fa about that) or because the client is un-educated in what they should be looking for, that is a different matter and where at all possible decent tradesmen should be doing their all to educate customers.
I see threads here all the time that complain they have lost out to someone who is cheaper and unequiped but if you want to stay in business you also have to sell. Being good on the tools counts for nothing if you can't sell, you'd be much better off going to work for another tiling firm or solely working for builders. If you lost out to someone else then you didn't do a good enough job in educating the customer as why you're a safe bet and why you have the skills needed and the reasons you are more expensive.
It's no good blaming these courses, you just have to stay one step ahead. You have to find ways of making yourself more attractive, added value. I'm always amazed at how many of you guys don't get involved in the design and supply of tiles. There are tons of customer who need help with this and who better to help them than someone who has handled thousands of square meters of tiles in all shapes and styles. If a customer is faced with two tilers, one who says 'you pick and i'll stick 'em' or another who says 'i'll help you every step of the way' who do you think is more attractive? You all deal with tile shops for your adhesives so you can purchase tiles at better rates than your customers can, you can even supply them cheaper than if they bought direct and still make a profit on them to cover your time designing and supplying.
You may not want to get involved and just want to turn up, do your day and walk away. That's fine but unless you do everything you can to further your business and make yourself stand out from these 2 week coursers than you really can't complain IMO. How is the client suppose to know the diffrence unless you blow the competition out of the water and make them look stupid?
Of course they damage the industry but then so do many other factors, the fact is though, nothing will change. So it no longer bothers me, well it does in the sense it gives trades a bad name but I doesn't bother me in that it effects my business as it rarely does. There will always be a market where someone is willing to employ someone who hasn't got a clue what they are doing, either because they are shopping on price (you can do sweet fa about that) or because the client is un-educated in what they should be looking for, that is a different matter and where at all possible decent tradesmen should be doing their all to educate customers.
I see threads here all the time that complain they have lost out to someone who is cheaper and unequiped but if you want to stay in business you also have to sell. Being good on the tools counts for nothing if you can't sell, you'd be much better off going to work for another tiling firm or solely working for builders. If you lost out to someone else then you didn't do a good enough job in educating the customer as why you're a safe bet and why you have the skills needed and the reasons you are more expensive.
It's no good blaming these courses, you just have to stay one step ahead. You have to find ways of making yourself more attractive, added value. I'm always amazed at how many of you guys don't get involved in the design and supply of tiles. There are tons of customer who need help with this and who better to help them than someone who has handled thousands of square meters of tiles in all shapes and styles. If a customer is faced with two tilers, one who says 'you pick and i'll stick 'em' or another who says 'i'll help you every step of the way' who do you think is more attractive? You all deal with tile shops for your adhesives so you can purchase tiles at better rates than your customers can, you can even supply them cheaper than if they bought direct and still make a profit on them to cover your time designing and supplying.
You may not want to get involved and just want to turn up, do your day and walk away. That's fine but unless you do everything you can to further your business and make yourself stand out from these 2 week coursers than you really can't complain IMO. How is the client suppose to know the diffrence unless you blow the competition out of the water and make them look stupid?
are short courses diluting our trade ,yes
i feel sorry for the people doing the courses they are being misled imo,
there,s just not the work out there and theses course providers are giving false hope out to there trainees imo
what can u learn in a few weeks , not much im afraid
unless there,s money to be earnt doing splash backs
i feel sorry for the people doing the courses they are being misled imo,
there,s just not the work out there and theses course providers are giving false hope out to there trainees imo
what can u learn in a few weeks , not much im afraid
unless there,s money to be earnt doing splash backs
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The D
Rob I agree with you but the question is about the training providers and are they diluting the tiling trade? For me the answer is simple yes they are.
We have a situation where 99% of the tilers coming in to the industry are from colleges or privet training providers and they are delivering what they are told to deliver. The people telling them what to deliver are NOT from construction and have no concept of how the trades are passed on. The days of the big firms with lots of good tilers teaching young lads over a period of years on all aspects of tiling have gone. We have lost the trade to a qualification, it is now longer an on site trained trade. training now can be done in a theory lesson.
You can get a qualification in tiling without ever having done a paid tiling job and without having done much actual tiling at all but you can answer questions about it so that is surfactant for the academics that run the education system.
We have a situation where 99% of the tilers coming in to the industry are from colleges or privet training providers and they are delivering what they are told to deliver. The people telling them what to deliver are NOT from construction and have no concept of how the trades are passed on. The days of the big firms with lots of good tilers teaching young lads over a period of years on all aspects of tiling have gone. We have lost the trade to a qualification, it is now longer an on site trained trade. training now can be done in a theory lesson.
You can get a qualification in tiling without ever having done a paid tiling job and without having done much actual tiling at all but you can answer questions about it so that is surfactant for the academics that run the education system.
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