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Discuss Problem with Ardex Grout FS Innocent Black in the Tile Adhesive / Grout Advice area at TilersForums.com.

Happy Christmas to everyone and I hope 2019 is a very successful year for all.
I'm looking for a bit of help with Ardex Grout from anyone who has used it or better still, uses it frequently. I've had a job that has gone horribly wrong. Long story short, the day after grouting the floor tiles on the first floor of a new build, we went onto site to find a large amount of the Ardex FS Grout Innocent Black had gone white. Now the initial reaction is probably 'it is efflorescence'. Hear me out.

Tiles are porcelain 600mm x 600mm. Build up is Alpha Hemi Hydrate screed ( totally and utterly dried - and i mean bone dry ). Primed with Ardex P51, Ardex X78 adhesive, Ditra 25, X78 adhesive ( 6mm bed to facilitate levels around the ali windows/doors) then 600mm x 600mm porcelain tiles ( Porcelanosa Urbatek range ). Left for 6 weeks prior to grouting. 2mm grout joint.

Grout - Ardex FS Grout - Innocent Black. 10Kg bags. Full bag mixed. Instructions from ardex were 3litres water per 10kg bag. We did 2.9litres water ready to add final 100ml but felt mix was already a bit too wet. Called Ardex technical, and spoke to their technical guy on the road who didn't know the requirements but said mix should hold on the grout float at 90degrees. We read the data sheet out to him. Clearly mix was too wet for this so added a little more powder from a new 10kg bag, same batch, at his instruction.

Site conditions - as perfect as perfect can be. Seriously. No other trades on site during tiling and grouting. Site meticulously clean. Clear working area. Nice comfortable ambient temperature ( heating not on ). Humidity is what I would describe as normal ( dehumidifiers used at the relevant drying points so the property felt like a normal house and not a damp site ) By this i mean it felt like a nice normal air quality. Some sites feel damp in the air from the wet trades. We have been on tiling duty for a considerably long time and have been the only trade on site. Site was not plastered, it was dry lined and painting was completed back in June. All windows and doors were done a year ago.

Grouting done with a grout float, then floor wiped over once ( once only) with very little water re-introduced to joint at the point that the grout was just biting. We couldn't have left it longer. No washboy used.

You may ask why we were so particular with the process - well, in the summer we had grouted 2 thirds of the ground floor ( last third is on a lower level so seperate and still needs to be grouted). The next day, we had noticed small patches of efflorescence and immediately called Ardex. They advised we had washed too early but not to worry as Lithofin will sort it out, but to leave the grout for a few weeks before attempting the acid clean. We accepeted this advice as we hadn't used FS before. Since then, that floor has been covered with a breathable membrance to keep it clean but allowing it to dry. Keen to avoid any possbility of washing too early or introducing too much water on the first floor, we were anal about both the prep and application and clean up on the first floor. Ground floor batch of grout is a different batch to the first floor due to unavailable quantities at purchase.

Back to our current problem. So, the day after grouting we go back in and find a large percentage of the black grout is white. We called Ardex and spoke to their 'expert' who asked what else had we expected with black grout! Not the answer I was looking for! He advised it was the moisture from their X78 escaping through the 2mm grout joint as that moisture had to escape somewhere and with the Ditra25 below, the grout joint was the only passage and all cement based grouts would suffer the same, especially the dark colours. The grout bag says allow 24hours before grouting - we left it 6 weeks. Ardex told me over the phone their X78 will take a year to dry!
They advised 'Bob' at Lithofin would help.

Bob is the Oracle at Lithofin. I keep stock of the cleaners/residue removers etc., so tried his recommendations to the letter and on chatting to him again the next day, raked out some of the grout to find it white all the way through in places. At best it was lighter than the leftover grout that had solidified in the bucket. Our only choice was to rake it all out - not fun times.

Now Ardex have been awful about this. They are saying it is installer error. This job alone has had 3 pallets of X78, 2 palletts of x77 and they advised they couldn't afford to send someone to site. Then they are saying the site is near the coast edge therefore it is windchill causing the problem - WHAT?? Then they say the site is unfinished - not sure what how many new builds are grouted when the site is completely finsihed - to be clear, internally, all that is left is skirting, door linings and doors, second fix electrical and second fix bathrooms. The grouting couldn't be left any longer in the process. Then they are saying the site is unheated and cold without even setting foot in the place. Their own expert says it takes a year for the adhesive to dry, however it is installer error.

We are now in the situation where part of the house is grouted Innocent Black so we have no choice but to do the rest, but I'm scared to do it incase of a repeat. We raked the 2 rooms out on day 3 and my hands still haven't recovered - it took all day into the evening with no skin left on parts on my hands. Has anyone any helpful suggestions? I have never experienced problems like this before. We now have the underfloor heating back on to hopefully remove any moisture in the adhesive before grouting but i'm not sure this will make a difference. When salts come out through cement based products it doesn't normally happen overnight does it? We have no choice but to use the Innocent Black FS

grout1.JPG



grout2.JPG



pre wipe over next morning
prenextdayclean.JPG



Best we could do after going down to max concentration as per Bob's instructions.
acidclean.JPG
acid.JPG
 
Mapei fuga fresca ..... job sorted
Thanks but not really the help I was looking for. Got another approx 120m2 to grout. Clients chose the Innocent Black after we ran up a load of sample boards - every black/grey imagineable and the Ardex is the correct colour. I have used Mapei on most jobs and was hopeful the 120 or 114 anthratcite would suit. Even bought a bag a the new Volcano but none of them worked quite right with the tile.
 
That was my helpful suggestion, and a serious one. I have never used the Ardex grout so cant comment on its application or characteristics of application / drying I'm afraid. You say Ardex have been unhelpful yet you are willing to potentially go through the same pain again!!??

Here's hoping someone else can help you
Yes, really don't have a choice as 2 thirds of the ground floor is grouted with it and raking that out isn't an option. 3 day cured grout was bad enough. That ground floor grout has been in for months! 2mm grout joints don't leave much room to get tools in to get the grout out without damaging the tile. And yes, the swimming pool due to be done with the Ardex is now going to be the Mapei system. I'll never spend another penny with Ardex. Only having to use the grout out of necessity to complete this job.
 
Guess I'm clutching at straws. Was wondering if mixing and cleaning up with bottled / distilled / de-ionised water would help, or if we dried the grout joints with a hair drier. Just can't understand how this 'reaction' can happen overnight. And Ardex were not in the least bit surprised. It was like it is quite normal, what do you expect and don't worry, Bob at lithofin will sort it.
 
These issues aren't exclusive to ardex, BAL grout is renowned for it as are others, something needs to change
You're right - however I spoke to Topps to ask if they were having any complaints about their grout and they said they used, but none for a while and that their new Bal grout boasts 'efflorescence free'. Not sure if this is correct as I have no experience of using Bal except on a sample board. Wow, their black is very black!
I can understand issues with grout if the prep work is poor or if too much water is used or site conditions are poor, or mixing instructions aren't followed ( Mapei Jasmine used to cause people all sorts of problems if they didn't do the 2nd stir) I have used Mapei 114 anthracite and 120 black so many times and never had a problem.
 
I always us Ardex grout.
have had similar problems with dark grouts, but believe it's due to water laying in joint after the wash.
Just another thought. I have just come back from hols and as you do, stood there looking at the tiling in the rest rooms to see an entire wall of black grout, gone white. Must have been 30m of it. Wasn't a cheap set up.
 
I always us Ardex grout.
have had similar problems with dark grouts, but believe it's due to water laying in joint after the wash.
Julian - do you mix it drier than what Ardex recommends? I know a lot of tilers just mix the amount of water that feels right. Just curious to know if you mix the Ardex recommended amounts of water or what is in your experience the correct amount.
 

Balloo

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Esteemed
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Belfast
Ive never had an issue with this grout before, installation has been no different than previous , weather has been veey mild so no frost has effected the product,.
It only leaves one other reason, there has been a manufacturing glich and a bad batch has been sent out
Too often tilers get the blame for not following procedures and quite frankly i get board of the same line.
Now i have to rake out all the grout at my own time and cost because the builder and ardex will run for the hills and its easier to blame me
 
Last edited by a moderator:
O

On one

Ive never had an issue with this grout before, installation has been no different than previous , weather has been veey mild so no frost has effected the product,.
It only leaves one other reason, there has been a manufacturing glich and a bad batch has been sent out
Too often tilers get the blame for not following procedures and quite frankly i get board of the same line.
Now i have to rake out all the grout at my own time and cost because the builder and ardex will run for the hills and its easier to blame me
I have a similar ongoing problem with another grout manufacturer.......you know that you have followed the guidelines to a tee,and it still happens!
 
J

J Sid

Ive never had an issue with this grout before, installation has been no different than previous , weather has been veey mild so no frost has effected the product,.
It only leaves one other reason, there has been a manufacturing glich and a bad batch has been sent out
Too often tilers get the blame for not following procedures and quite frankly i get board of the same line.
Now i have to rake out all the grout at my own time and cost because the builder and ardex will run for the hills and its easier to blame me

I understand your frustration, I've had it with ardex before, 6001 Adhesive. Imo and experience they will never admit liability, as many manufactures won't. Best you'd likely to get is more of there products to compensate you.
you need to be more of pain in the side of the shop you bought it and Ardex them selves.

as good as we think we are....it is sometimes fixer error
 
D

Dumbo

Ive never had an issue with this grout before, installation has been no different than previous , weather has been veey mild so no frost has effected the product,.
It only leaves one other reason, there has been a manufacturing glich and a bad batch has been sent out
Too often tilers get the blame for not following procedures and quite frankly i get board of the same line.
Now i have to rake out all the grout at my own time and cost because the builder and ardex will run for the hills and its easier to blame me
I understand your frustration, I've had it with ardex before, 6001 Adhesive. Imo and experience they will never admit liability, as many manufactures won't. Best you'd likely to get is more of there products to compensate you.
you need to be more of pain in the side of the shop you bought it and Ardex them selves.

as good as we think we are....it is sometimes fixer error
I think from a consumer law point of view @JulianSidney is correct as you have no contract with Ardex but you would with shop .
But on another note this why I don't bother with the if you use all our products for a job you get a guarantee . I use primers adhesives and grouts from different manufacturers
 
Q

Qwerty

Ive never had an issue with this grout before, installation has been no different than previous , weather has been veey mild so no frost has effected the product,.
It only leaves one other reason, there has been a manufacturing glich and a bad batch has been sent out
Too often tilers get the blame for not following procedures and quite frankly i get board of the same line.
Now i have to rake out all the grout at my own time and cost because the builder and ardex will run for the hills and its easier to blame me

So you're going to continue grouting with it?
 
I know this is late but the problem you faced is from water. More water equals a whiter finish. Best case the adhesive dries at 1mm per week. 2mm joint is going to be sometime in Julember. If your tile is 600mm then at least 30 weeks. The issue is that you get the grout wet whilst its going off and this washes the colour out with a very small amount of moisture. Everything else sets slightly sooner than the pigment therefore if there is moisture transfer it will bleach it at that precise moment no matter what you do. Its a common problem with brick mortar. Use epoxy based.
 

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