Tile Straight Onto This?

[mickp]

I am about to embark on tiling my bathroom floor and looking for a bit of advice. I have tiled a couple of floors before but always onto concrete and have gathered that upstairs floors need some different considerations. The house was built in 2013. The floor is solid and even. I am not 100% sure of what the floor is actually boarded with. It seems to be chipboard but with some kind of coating. I am wondering if I can tile straight onto this or whether or not I need to use backer board first. I would prefer not to as I could do without the additional thickness but above all I want to do the best possible job and have no issues with it. I feel like I could be answering my own question there. I was thinking to use keraflex maxi s1 adhesive to allow for some additional movement of the floor. Is this necessary?

I have searched a bit on the forum and it seems that most people are using backer boards in the bathroom when going onto ply or chipboard. The thing that is making me doubt if I need to is the coating on my floor (see below). I Plan to use 12mm thick quartz tiles and the bathroom is 4sqm.

Thanks in advance

Mick

 

[G Taylor Tiling]

Would quite agree But S2 is up there with the best

Good To chat... got to go now... The old adage "Fail tp Prepare.... Prepare to Fail"

 

[Old Mod]

@Glynn
Hope you're well mate,
I'd appreciate your comments on this subject please.
Thanks,
Marc.

 

[J Sid]

@Glynn
Hope you're well mate,
I'd appreciate your comments on this subject please.
Thanks,
Marc.

Sent them an email earlier for clarification, 'if' I get a reply before @Glynn replies I will post it

 

[darren pealing]

Researched this myself,it's egger board,I rang them,they said that u could tile onto it without the need for backer board or ditra,they said you can use a standard flexi adhesive,I mentioned to be on the safe side is it better to prime and lay ditra and they said yes,I now have got to go and have a look at the job as they have a problem with it,reading through the thread it is looking like I need to get an email to confirm this,I'm a little bit peaved as I made all the relevant calls to prevent any issues

 

[darren pealing]

On the topic of the Quartz tiles I've done two Quartz jobs recently on the first one the tiles and adhesives were already on site I layed with a s1 adhesive,looking back I had no problems with that job,they weren't a cheap Quartz which I think as been the reason for not cupping.
On my next Quartz job they recommended using mapie granfix as its the water in s1 that can cause cupping,especially on the cheaper Quartz,so I used the mapie granfix as I don't want any call backs on my work,and all was good,at £40 a bag and bottle it better be,just wondered if anyone can recommend a decent reasonable supplier for my adhesives,I'm in the Hertfordshire area.

 

[White Room]

On the topic of the Quartz tiles I've done two Quartz jobs recently on the first one the tiles and adhesives were already on site I layed with a s1 adhesive,looking back I had no problems with that job,they weren't a cheap Quartz which I think as been the reason for not cupping.
On my next Quartz job they recommended using mapie granfix as its the water in s1 that can cause cupping,especially on the cheaper Quartz,so I used the mapie granfix as I don't want any call backs on my work,and all was good,at £40 a bag and bottle it better be,just wondered if anyone can recommend a decent reasonable supplier for my adhesives,I'm in the Hertfordshire area.

You could try Apex Grange and they deliver Apex Grange Products

Just tiles in Harpenden does Tilemaster

 

[G Taylor Tiling]

On the topic of the Quartz tiles I've done two Quartz jobs recently on the first one the tiles and adhesives were already on site I layed with a s1 adhesive,looking back I had no problems with that job,they weren't a cheap Quartz which I think as been the reason for not cupping.
On my next Quartz job they recommended using mapie granfix as its the water in s1 that can cause cupping,especially on the cheaper Quartz,so I used the mapie granfix as I don't want any call backs on my work,and all was good,at £40 a bag and bottle it better be,just wondered if anyone can recommend a decent reasonable supplier for my adhesives,I'm in the Hertfordshire area.

Try Tilemaster adhesives, give them a shout, if someone in the area has stock, they will let you know if not you may be lucky and get an account direct !

 

[J Sid]

Tilemaster S2 is there belt and braces...even Steel/Metal !!!

Just been reading the tec sheet for this S2 product, you would be advised to be completely sure of what the chipboard is before tiling onto it.
This is an extract for said sheet:

Please Note: Certain manufacturers of chipboard floorboard do not recommend their products for being tiled to directly due to the design of their particular board. If in doubt, please consult with the supplier of the board or alternatively contact our Technical Helpline on 01772 456831 for further advice.

just a shame you have to look so hard to find it, could end in tears if you don't know your wax coated from your resin coat or any other coated chip boards.
I'm sure it does stick tiles to chip board but are you able to screw down with close enough centres? Has the board been sealed on under side and edges to help with moisture ingress?
Surly easier to overboard or to replace with, say 22mm hardier boards than take the risk !

 

[G Taylor Tiling]

Just been reading the tec sheet for this S2 product, you would be advised to be completely sure of what the chipboard is before tiling onto it.
This is an extract for said sheet:

Please Note: Certain manufacturers of chipboard floorboard do not recommend their products for being tiled to directly due to the design of their particular board. If in doubt, please consult with the supplier of the board or alternatively contact our Technical Helpline on 01772 456831 for further advice.

just a shame you have to look so hard to find it, could end in tears if you don't know your wax coated from your resin coat or any other coated chip boards.
I'm sure it does stick tiles to chip board but are you able to screw down with close enough centres? Has the board been sealed on under side and edges to help with moisture ingress?
Surly easier to overboard or to replace with, say 22mm hardier boards than take the risk !

Yes it is a shame that you need to look into all the fine print, I always use Dural matting or if in doubt use hardi backer board, I would never tile directly on timber weather it's chipboard/ waterproof / tounge and grove, plywood ...etc

 

[mickp]

Sounds like I opened a can of worms here. I thought I may have been asking a stupid question but now I feel less bad about being confused. I'm definitely staying away from this job though. As much as enjoy doing everything myself I think there may be too many pitfalls in this one. My wife definately wants quartz so I will be getting someone (probably from recommendation on here) to fit them. At least I have some knowledge of how it should be approached and can ensure the correct materials and techniques are employed.

One thing that has been mentioned in a couple of the replies though is 'cheap quartz' I didn't think the tiles I was planning on buying were particularly cheap but they were roughly half what porcelenosa quoted me when I bought my downstairs tiles. They do do seem to be at the cheaper end of quartz but far from the cheapest floor tiles you can get. I don't want to pay someone to fit inferior quality products as i would like to not need to replace the floor for a long time. If anyone thinks I should be looking elsewhere for the tiles please feel free to advise. I've already learnt a lot from this thread, seems a shame to stop now.

Thanks everyone for taking the time to input (even though I'm sure some of you just love to argue )

Mick

 

[G Taylor Tiling]

Sounds like I opened a can of worms here. I thought I may have been asking a stupid question but now I feel less bad about being confused. I'm definitely staying away from this job though. As much as enjoy doing everything myself I think there may be too many pitfalls in this one. My wife definately wants quartz so I will be getting someone (probably from recommendation on here) to fit them. At least I have some knowledge of how it should be approached and can ensure the correct materials and techniques are employed.

One thing that has been mentioned in a couple of the replies though is 'cheap quartz' I didn't think the tiles I was planning on buying were particularly cheap but they were roughly half what porcelenosa quoted me when I bought my downstairs tiles. They do do seem to be at the cheaper end of quartz but far from the cheapest floor tiles you can get. I don't want to pay someone to fit inferior quality products as i would like to not need to replace the floor for a long time. If anyone thinks I should be looking elsewhere for the tiles please feel free to advise. I've already learnt a lot from this thread, seems a shame to stop now.

Thanks everyone for taking the time to input (even though I'm sure some of you just love to argue )

Mick

All I would say is don't buy the cheapest quartz, but from a physical shop, then you have somewhere to go back etc...and ask where ever you purchase them from, are they ok for underfloor heating (even though you perhaps are not having underfloor heating) and the thickness of the quartz should be between 10-12mm in thickness

I am sure any of the professional tile fitters on this site would make a cracking job
All the best
Ps pic of some dodgy quartz

 

[mickp]

All I would say is don't buy the cheapest quartz, but from a physical shop, then you have somewhere to go back etc...and ask where ever you purchase them from, are they ok for underfloor heating (even though you perhaps are not having underfloor heating) and the thickness of the quartz should be between 10-12mm in thickness

I am sure any of the professional tile fitters on this site would make a cracking job
All the best
Ps pic of some dodgy quartz View attachment 79710

Thanks for the advice.

The tiles I was planning on using are from Tile Mountain which is a decent size physical shop as well as an internet retailer, I think they may advertise on here. I have been to the shop mysef to pick up some adhesive and I saw the quartz tiles while I was there. They looked good but in all honesty I was more interested in the finish that any variation in thickness. I could check this if and when I go to pick up the tiles. In their description they do say that they are suitable for underfloor heating which I wont be having. That only leaves the price, they are the cheapest around. There are several user reviews on their site all praising the tiles although it is difficult to determine whether this praise is directed at the appearance of sample pieces or fitted tiles. I have written to them and asked them to clarify the recommended adhesive.

That said I would hate to have a job done that fails due to inferior quality materials as that is no good for anyone involved so if I find out anything that implys that the tiles are suspect quality I will look elsewhere.

Thanks again

 

[mickp]

So I asked tile mountain today about the recommended adhesive for fixing their quartz tiles. They got back to me very promptly with this reply;

"Thank you for your email.
We have had our Quartz tested by Mapei, who are the manufacture of our adhesive, and they have advised that if the tiles are being installed onto a concrete floor, with no underfloor heating, then just Keraquick is fine for installing these tiles.
If the tiles are being laid onto timber or any other substrate that could move, or being installed in conjunction with under-floor heating, we would recommend Keraquick adhesive mixed with Latex.
So, as long as the tiles are being installed onto a concrete floor, with no underfloor heating, just Keraquick, would be fine for installation. "

It is convincing enough for me. I guess the guy who is fixing them also needs to be convinced though.

Mick

 

[hmtiling]

I'd like to hear that from mapei before I'd do it

 

[mickp]

Fair point. I am such a push over. I was thinking that I would possibly struggle to get someone who wasnt convinced to use keraquick just off that recommendation. Although I could see the logic in keraquick being used with latex as it eliminates the water. Im not very knowlegable in the ways of tile adhesives though so I wont be arguing that with anyone. I will fire off an email to mapei and see what they say. It does seem a little strange that mapei wouldnt just recommend the adhesive that they produce and specify for use with quartz tiles. Ok, looks like im not that convinced anymore.....

 

[hmtiling]

Sorry to throw a spanner in the works

 

[mickp]

No, thank you for throwing a spanner in the works. It's far better to remove all the spanners at this stage than be trying to chisel up warped cracked tiles from a chip board floor. All the advice is very much appreciated. It's been a real eye opener.

 

[Old Mod]

Keraquick & latex plus! Mmmmmmm my favourite! Hahaha

 

[hmtiling]

Get some wf21

 

[Old Mod]

Get some wf21

What good is a McAlpine wasteflow kit? Haha

 

[hmtiling]

What good is a McAlpine wasteflow kit? Haha

It's the old weber 2 part. A horrible rubber crumb one that was a nightmare to clean off tools and hairy arms! http://www.netweber.co.uk/uploads/tx_weberproductpage/14734_img.pdf

 

[G Taylor Tiling]

So I asked tile mountain today about the recommended adhesive for fixing their quartz tiles. They got back to me very promptly with this reply;

"Thank you for your email.
We have had our Quartz tested by Mapei, who are the manufacture of our adhesive, and they have advised that if the tiles are being installed onto a concrete floor, with no underfloor heating, then just Keraquick is fine for installing these tiles.
If the tiles are being laid onto timber or any other substrate that could move, or being installed in conjunction with under-floor heating, we would recommend Keraquick adhesive mixed with Latex.
So, as long as the tiles are being installed onto a concrete floor, with no underfloor heating, just Keraquick, would be fine for installation. "

It is convincing enough for me. I guess the guy who is fixing them also needs to be convinced though.

Mick

Hi Mick
Your quartz sound fine to me, and if they have been tested, that's a bonus, as far as fixing the quartz tiles, I would go along with whoever you employ to do the job, once they have seen them, seen the job etc, ( and probably are on this Fourum site) and are happy to take on the job using what they feel confident, method of tiling etc, products they frequently use...and of course there guarantee.... You will be fine!!
All the best and enjoy your new bathroom

 

[G Taylor Tiling]

Hi Mick
Your quartz sound fine to me, and if they have been tested, that's a bonus, as far as fixing the quartz tiles, I would go along with whoever you employ to do the job, once they have seen them, seen the job etc, ( and probably are on this Fourum site) and are happy to take on the job using what they feel confident, method of tiling etc, products they frequently use...and of course there guarantee.... You will be fine!!
All the best and enjoy your new bathroom

Ps grey Quartz job I did last year using Dural Ci matting and ultimate adhesive with iron grey liquid ceramic grout
Stunning

 

[J Sid]

So I asked tile mountain today about the recommended adhesive for fixing their quartz tiles. They got back to me very promptly with this reply;

"Thank you for your email.
We have had our Quartz tested by Mapei, who are the manufacture of our adhesive, and they have advised that if the tiles are being installed onto a concrete floor, with no underfloor heating, then just Keraquick is fine for installing these tiles.
If the tiles are being laid onto timber or any other substrate that could move, or being installed in conjunction with under-floor heating, we would recommend Keraquick adhesive mixed with Latex.
So, as long as the tiles are being installed onto a concrete floor, with no underfloor heating, just Keraquick, would be fine for installation. "

It is convincing enough for me. I guess the guy who is fixing them also needs to be convinced though.

Mick

Did a job this year with these tile, Gulf Stone, if the same as you are having, very good tile. They recommended and supplied karaquick. Only problem was, written on the box of these tiles it says ' only fix using latex based adhesive ' (or words to that affect)
So what do you do?
Listen to the shops advice or listen to the tile manufacturers advice?
Me, I follow the advice of the tile manufacturer.

 

[J Sid]

Had a reply from Tilemaster today:

Morning Julian,

Many thanks for your enquiry into fixing materials for fixing Quartz Tiles.

There are a few manufacturers that recommend fixing these tiles with a 2 part adhesive and I think that a lot of this has been driven by Mapei’s recommendations of using their 2 part system. We have a lot of experience of Gulf Stone Tiles, we know the owners of Gulf Stone UK very well and in fact we were their sole supplier of adhesive for many years. We have also been involved in many projects where these tiles have been fixed.

Our experience tells us that the issues and failures associated with this type of resin agglomerated tile are largely down to moisture being prevalent below the tile, either within the adhesive or within the substrate. Moisture can cause these tiles to mis-shape and “dish” in that the corners of the tiles can curl. We have seen that the moisture within the tile adhesive can cause this, in particular when standard setting adhesives are used, because the moisture is prevalent within the adhesive for much longer than a rapid setting adhesive.

The ways to avoid this happening are to use adhesives with a low water addition and also to use adhesives with high initial bond strengths.

Our Ultimate adhesive has a very low water addition level, approximately 1 litre per 20kg lower than our other adhesives, this relates to around 20 – 25% less water. The initial bond strengths of Ultimate are also extremely good, the bond strength is considerably higher than the other adhesives in our range. For these reasons, we recommend Ultimate adhesive as our chosen adhesive for fixing resin agglomerated tiles and guarantee the product for this use. Ultimate has been our recommended adhesive for this type of tile for several years, many projects have been completed successfully using this system.


We have a 2 part adhesive within our range but do not believe that it is necessary to use a 2 part system when we have a product such as Ultimate adhesive in our range.


Just as a final note Julian, it is important that the Quartz tiles are back buttered as well as serrating the substrate in the normal way.

I hope this information assists and answers your questions,


Yours

Glynn Griffin
Technical Support
Tilemaster Adhesives Limited
Unit 4 Tomlinson Point
Tomlinson Road
Leyland, PR25 2DY
Tel: 01772 456831
07792 510804

 

[hmtiling]

Ps grey Quartz job I did last year using Dural Ci matting and ultimate adhesive with iron grey liquid ceramic grout
Stunning View attachment 79728 View attachment 79729

How do you get on with that kerakoll grout? A lot easier than epoxy? Any limitations? Good with stone?
Should I start another thread?

 

[hmtiling]

Had a reply from Tilemaster today:

Morning Julian,

Many thanks for your enquiry into fixing materials for fixing Quartz Tiles.

There are a few manufacturers that recommend fixing these tiles with a 2 part adhesive and I think that a lot of this has been driven by Mapei’s recommendations of using their 2 part system. We have a lot of experience of Gulf Stone Tiles, we know the owners of Gulf Stone UK very well and in fact we were their sole supplier of adhesive for many years. We have also been involved in many projects where these tiles have been fixed.

Our experience tells us that the issues and failures associated with this type of resin agglomerated tile are largely down to moisture being prevalent below the tile, either within the adhesive or within the substrate. Moisture can cause these tiles to mis-shape and “dish” in that the corners of the tiles can curl. We have seen that the moisture within the tile adhesive can cause this, in particular when standard setting adhesives are used, because the moisture is prevalent within the adhesive for much longer than a rapid setting adhesive.

The ways to avoid this happening are to use adhesives with a low water addition and also to use adhesives with high initial bond strengths.

Our Ultimate adhesive has a very low water addition level, approximately 1 litre per 20kg lower than our other adhesives, this relates to around 20 – 25% less water. The initial bond strengths of Ultimate are also extremely good, the bond strength is considerably higher than the other adhesives in our range. For these reasons, we recommend Ultimate adhesive as our chosen adhesive for fixing resin agglomerated tiles and guarantee the product for this use. Ultimate has been our recommended adhesive for this type of tile for several years, many projects have been completed successfully using this system.


We have a 2 part adhesive within our range but do not believe that it is necessary to use a 2 part system when we have a product such as Ultimate adhesive in our range.


Just as a final note Julian, it is important that the Quartz tiles are back buttered as well as serrating the substrate in the normal way.

I hope this information assists and answers your questions,


Yours

Glynn Griffin
Technical Support
Tilemaster Adhesives Limited
Unit 4 Tomlinson Point
Tomlinson Road
Leyland, PR25 2DY
Tel: 01772 456831
07792 510804

Is that a guarantee?

 

[J Sid]

Is that a guarantee?

Can't comment on that

 

[hmtiling]

2 part!!

 

[J Sid]

2 part!!

For me, yes always