A second opinion request

[Andy Allen]

Andy

We are not tying for a perfect floor and have never said that, merely a reasonably laid one and judging by the response of many to this thread, then the standard is not what one would reasonably expect. The shop has told us several times that for this quality of tile there should be no lippage yet they were not willing to come around and offer any opinion or advice, despite the fact that they put the tilers name to us. The tiler on the other hand advised that based on the quality of the tiles, this is as good as it gets. So Andy, based on this how would you proceed? They can't both be correct......

i thought you said the tiler agreed the tiles were good quality?....this was after you told the shop, the tiler said the tiles were not good quility, the shop rings the tiler who they proberly pass alot of work to, so the tiler changes his mind and says there good quality, like i said your playing one against the other...

and to be fair your not going to get on honest answer to the quality of the tiles...

 

[kilty55]

hi ,i think a few more pictures may help everyone give you more advice....as already requested some shots of the spirit sitting on the tiles and also what the tiling is like at door thresholds and skirts........currenty you have a level starting at one end of the room sitting flat on tiles and your lifting it till its bubble flat making it over 20mm out and seems to be still rising?

just my opinion but are you sure you didnt have a FLAT floor to begin with but in reality it wasnt level

i cant see how the floor rises by that amount and then falls away by that amount

or the other option would be it rises by that amount and keeps rising giving you what a floor that 3 inches out on the other end?

the product you have bought imo is not going to be pan flat...if you care to google welsh slate floor tiles you will see many images where edges protrude etc...to me this is part of the beauty of slate it is not meant to look like a pre fabricated product it is meant to look natural and it will not be 100 percent flat on the finsihed surface there will be some twists and bows in it

unfortunately the tile shop will tell you that you had a top quality product etc etc they are not going to risk re funding you at this stage,

welsh slate....doesnt it just cry out to you rugged natural beauty? it certainly doesnt cry out to me pan flat mirror finish

 

[Mike Mike]

John & Mary, in my opinion, the solution to this should be logical and simple.

What is the British Standard for Workmanship for Floor Tiling?
(What are the maximum permissible lips for tiles that size in that material?)

Does this installation meet the requirements of that British Standard, or not?

Yes = Live with it (or pay extra for remedial work until you are satisfied).

No = Did you and the tiler agree before work commenced that the installation would deviate from British Standards?

Yes = Live with it (or pay extra for remedial work).

No = Tiler's work is sub-standard.

I am not in the U.K. so don't know what groups or procedures you have for rectifying sub-standard building work, but find out your rights (from a lawyer, or consumer advice group) and decide what to do next.

What is interesting to me from reading all the numerous responses, is that there does not seem to be agreement or awareness from tilers or customers in the U.K. as to what the industry standard is, otherwise this would have been the very first response from someone, surely. And when I tried to find the British Standard for tiling on the web, I couldn't! I found a few links but they seem to require you to buy them just to read them, and they are £156 each???!!!!

So my question to all the professional tilers on this forum is:

WHAT IS THE BRITISH STANDARD FOR WORKMANSHIP FOR TILING? CAN YOU SHARE THAT WITH JOHN & MARY??

Best of luck.

 

[widler]

John & Mary, in my opinion, the solution to this should be logical and simple.

What is the British Standard for Workmanship for Floor Tiling?
(What are the maximum permissible lips for tiles that size in that material?)

Does this installation meet the requirements of that British Standard, or not?

Yes = Live with it (or pay extra for remedial work until you are satisfied).

No = Did you and the tiler agree before work commenced that the installation would deviate from British Standards?

Yes = Live with it (or pay extra for remedial work).

No = Tiler's work is sub-standard.

I am not in the U.K. so don't know what groups or procedures you have for rectifying sub-standard building work, but find out your rights (from a lawyer, or consumer advice group) and decide what to do next.

What is interesting to me from reading all the numerous responses, is that there does not seem to be agreement or awareness from tilers or customers in the U.K. as to what the industry standard is, otherwise this would have been the very first response from someone, surely. And when I tried to find the British Standard for tiling on the web, I couldn't! I found a few links but they seem to require you to buy them just to read them, and they are £156 each???!!!!

So my question to all the professional tilers on this forum is:

WHAT IS THE BRITISH STANDARD FOR WORKMANSHIP FOR TILING? CAN YOU SHARE THAT WITH JOHN & MARY??

Best of luck.

hopefully swedish the british standard should be the same as the swedish standard,ie good or better than good. i don't think you should have to work to any written down standard ,every job should be at the same standard as the last,ie good or better than good.

now i don't know if you are having a go at the 'british standard' of workmanship on here,but what has been said on this thread is right,the tiles are a riven tile ie not flat,so to gain a perfectly flat floor with a riven slate is nigh on impossible. i think nearly all the tilers on here would of made a better job than this fellow has,but,being british,we don't like to be to bitchy until we know the full story.

just out of curiosity, what is the swdish standard ?

 

[Mike Mike]

Wilder, written standards exist, whether followed or not, and ultimately are used for dispute resolution, especially if disputes go to arbitration or court.

I am not "having a go at the British Standard of workmanship on here" at all, quite the opposite. I am trying to de-personalise this issue and take out all the emotion by simply asking did this job meet British Standards for Workmanship, or not? It is not my fault if nobody on this forum knows what those standards are... ;-)

Surely it is better that both parties understand the industry standards and agree on them in advance of projects commencing, that way disputes regarding the finished work can be easily and quickly resolved.

Not being funny, but saying tiling should be "good or better than good" is completely subjective i.e. the tiler who laid this bathroom believes it is "good, or better than good", whereas the customer believes it is "not good".

If the British Standard says the maximum lippage for this size of tile is 2mm and there are lips in this bathroom in excess of that, then the work is "not good", in those places.

However, if the lips are less than that, then the work is, by reference to the British Standard, "good" (or at least acceptable to standard).

The Swedish standard for lippage is:

Tiles up to 100mm in size = 0.7mm
Tiles up to 150mm in size = 1.0mm
Tiles over 150mm follow this formula: ((Length + width) divided by 1000) + 1mm.

In this instance, the tiles are 600 + 400 = 1000, divided by 1000 = 1 + 1 = 2mm maximum lippage. If that job was here in Sweden and the lips were over 2mm and the customer had not agreed to a deviation before work commenced, then the contractor would have to take the tiles up and do it again, at his expense...

All the best,

Swedish Mike

 

[Colour Republic]

It is not my fault if nobody on this forum knows what those standards are... ;-)

You'll find British standards refered to and detailed all over this forum!

 

[jay]

Just before this goes any further we are talking natural slate not tiles so the standards are different (or at least they are different here classed as stone)

 

[Andy Allen]

and know one can really tell the quality of the stone, unless someone has a look at it...

 

[Fliselege]

Mike, don't know if you've worked with us mountain monkies but in U.K there's no våtroms norm, no sentral godekjent and no taxtman to turn to, although i think Norway is a pathetic communist pain in the neck, at least it's difficult for the customers to be stitched up, unless they get papa polak to do the job on the black of course, which works out great for us as we get the job white to put it right, and the pennies come rolling in!!!

 

[widler]

Wilder, written standards exist, whether followed or not, and ultimately are used for dispute resolution, especially if disputes go to arbitration or court.

I am not "having a go at the British Standard of workmanship on here" at all, quite the opposite. I am trying to de-personalise this issue and take out all the emotion by simply asking did this job meet British Standards for Workmanship, or not? It is not my fault if nobody on this forum knows what those standards are... ;-)

Surely it is better that both parties understand the industry standards and agree on them in advance of projects commencing, that way disputes regarding the finished work can be easily and quickly resolved.

Not being funny, but saying tiling should be "good or better than good" is completely subjective i.e. the tiler who laid this bathroom believes it is "good, or better than good", whereas the customer believes it is "not good".

If the British Standard says the maximum lippage for this size of tile is 2mm and there are lips in this bathroom in excess of that, then the work is "not good", in those places.

However, if the lips are less than that, then the work is, by reference to the British Standard, "good" (or at least acceptable to standard).

The Swedish standard for lippage is:

Tiles up to 100mm in size = 0.7mm
Tiles up to 150mm in size = 1.0mm
Tiles over 150mm follow this formula: ((Length + width) divided by 1000) + 1mm.

In this instance, the tiles are 600 + 400 = 1000, divided by 1000 = 1 + 1 = 2mm maximum lippage. If that job was here in Sweden and the lips were over 2mm and the customer had not agreed to a deviation before work commenced, then the contractor would have to take the tiles up and do it again, at his expense...

All the best,

Swedish Mike

good comeback,i suppose all your natural riven slate floors are lippage free

 

[Mike Mike]

Widler, yes

 

[widler]

Widler, yes

Nice, any pics, not of floor though of semi naked swedish women


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[simonb43]

Probably a bit late for a reply, but when i lay a slate floor using uncalibrated slate, i always inform the customer that it is very rare to have all edges of the tiles to be the same level, as it is a natural product. If this was supposed to be calibrated then a near flat finish should be achievable. Slate is not the type of tile to use if a flat finish is required

 

[Mike Mike]

Widler, just for you:

Swedish vs. British Nightclubs - YouTube

LOL, all the best,

Mike

 

[bugs183]

It's kinda gone off topic here, but to put my opinion in here i doubt very much that the floor was level in the first place in all directions. Chances are it was flat, very different.
I show my customers this when we discuss 'level' floors, its a bit odd but bear with me. I get a cd case and hold it out, we can see case is flat, but it does not mean it is level, to find a perfectly level screed unless it is poured is very very rare no matter how good the screeder is, but it could be perfectly flat, massive difference.
So if the guy laid UFH and didn't self level it then he didn't do the job as any experienced tiler should, chances are the adhesive hasn't been mechanically keyed into the concrete as the was a mat in the way, so this could ultimately fail anyway.
As for the shop saying there should be zero lipping with slate, twaddle. Slate is a sedimentary rock combined of layers of shale and mud, so unless the sea was perfectly calm for several million years or God was feeling generous that day there is no way it can be flat, fact. You can't give slate a grade other than, this batch seems denser and holds itself together well.
It does look like he didn't go through and grade the slate, which if they have been diamond ground he shouldn't really need too, as they would be plained to the same thickness.
So where is this going, well who can say.
I think the shop have been at fault for saying that there will be no lippage.
I think the customers like a natural finish, but didn't anticipate just how 'natural' slate can be.
And i think the tiler is at fault as well for not talking to the customer and explaining what slate is like, also getting the job done too quickly and not levelling or paying attention to the possible lipping.
All in all i don't see how anyone will come out of this smiling. The customer isn't happy and once you're not then it's very hard to rectify. As for the shop and the tiler we don't know who said what, so it's a very tough call i'm afraid.