Advice needed - poor tiling job, dot and dab not to BS5385

[Soso]

BS5385 part 4:2015:

7.2.3 Installations not immersed but subject to occasional wetting.
In installations where contact with water is only intermittent, and the installation has had the opportunity to dry out between periods of use, e.g. domestic (not power) showers, 7.2.1 and the following should apply: (have checked 7.2.1 and all it says relating to your query may be not to use plaster or gypsum based materials in wet areas as they are unstable when wet or when combined with cement based materials).

a) The background should preferably be cement and sand rendering or dense concrete. Sheets and boards should not be used unless they are dimensionally stable in changing moisture conditions. Tiles should be solidly bedded in water resistant adhesive.

b) The joints between the tiles should be water-resistant but additional protection can be obtained by using an impervious grout.

c) The gaps between wall and shower tray/bath should be sealed, particularly where the installation is located on a suspended floor.

NOTE 1, for water sensitive backgrounds e.g. gypsum plaster, additional protection in the form of a waterproofing tanking system may be considered.

NOTE 2, The use of impervious grouts and adhesives is no substitute for a tanked installation.

More to follow when I get a bit more time.... 7.2.4 which is for wetrooms and domestic power showers. or you can have a browse yourself:
British Standards no longer available at Newcastle Library.... But here's another way. - https://www.tilersforums.com/threads/british-standards-no-longer-available-at-newcastle-library-but-heres-another-way.83947/

In reference to point a above, he used a standard plaster board on one side of the shower and on the rest he installed ceramic tiles and mosaics over the top of very old previous tiling job. And by the window, we don't believe he prepared the walls again so not sure what he did there. Yes i think i could definitely say plaster board is not suitable in that area ?

 

[Tile Shop]

oh my gosh, that is perfect ! Thank you so so much. He fitted our bathroom in May 2018 but I'm sure the new standard should still apply given its what the tile association said too before ?

Hard to say. You will probably need to speak to the TTA on that one. not sure how much clout it would give if it wasn't in writing before they were installed. But it is good practice and many pro tilers will not tile a shower without it.

 

[Tile Shop]

I guess this hits on two counts. Some of the mosaics are right next to each other without any room for grout as he hasn't spaced some properly and also dot and dab expressly mentioned is fantastic !

Yes I guess it will but the amount of stress within a couple of line of mosaic would not have an impact. Its just a lack of attention to detail on the tilers part. The dot and dab is a good change. Before they only recommended methods to use with no mention of what methods not to use.

 

[Tile Shop]

In reference to point a above, he used a standard plaster board on one side of the shower and on the rest he installed ceramic tiles and mosaics over the top of very old previous tiling job. And by the window, we don't believe he prepared the walls again so not sure what he did there. Yes i think i could definitely say plaster board is not suitable in that area ?

Without tanking, no it isn't. As for tiling on tile.... do you know what surface the old tiles were installed onto and how thick they were?

 

[Soso]

Without tanking, no it isn't. As for tiling on tile.... do you know what surface the old tiles were installed onto and how thick they were?

I've just remembered we have the same old tiles in another bathroom. They look like they are around 5mm or 4mm depth. The surface underneath the old tiles was just a normal wall i believe though . On the back side of the shower area away from the new shower head, they ripped out the other shower unit which left a hole in the wall. We believe, from what we saw, that they put small offcuts of plasterboard into some parts of that hole ( not all ) and they seemed to just dump mortar/adhesive in the hole so we have no idea how they did this properly. I think the holes are probably still there behind the mortar - we saw some internal insulation in the hole too. This is a part of the shower that would be mostly away from significant water fall although it would still get some.

 

[Soso]

I got this from the FAQ on the tile association ( they have in the last week removed the FAQ answers though :-( But they seem to correspond to part 4 BSI - even though i didn't see word Essential in there ? )

"Choosing shower or wetroom tiles

British Standard BS5385 is the Code of Practice for fixing wall and floor tiles. Part 4 of the Standard offers advice on fixing tiles in particular situations including wet areas such as in showers.

First check with your tile supplier that the tile is suitable for use in a shower and/or bathroom. Part 4 of British Standard BS538S, the Code of Practice for fixing wall and floor tiles offers advice on fixing tiles in particular situations including wet areas such as in showers. BS5385 states It is essential to tile onto an already water resistant background. Sand/cement render, dense concrete or water resistant tile backer board are ideal backgrounds. Plaster, plasterboard, timber and timber-based products such as MDF or plywood are absorbent and should be made waterproof by the use of a waterproofing or tanking system.

Note the word "essential" in the above paragraph. Failure to do this is the most common cause of tiling failures in domestic bathrooms. Tiling onto non water- resistant backgrounds is therefore in breach of the British Standard BS5385

An alternative to plasterboard or timber based products is tile backerboard which is an inert water resistant product.

Waterproofing systems can be painted on to or applied to an absorbent background. Most tile adhesive producers have a range of waterproofing systems that coordinate with the tile adhesives and grouts in their product ranges.

The tile adhesive should be a water resistant polymer enhanced adhesive meeting the requirements of BS EN 12004 for a D2 dispersion adhesive or C1 or C2 for a cementitious adhesives and the tile grout should be water resistant, meeting the requirements of BS EN 13888.

Tiles should be fixed using the solid bed method, i.e. ensuring that there are no voids beneath the tiles. The joints between the tiles should be filled using a water resistant grout.

Special attention should be paid to sealing the gaps between the base of the tiling and where the tiling joins the base of shower units or bath and penetrations in the tiling (e.g. shower fittings), using a good quality antifungicidal silicon sealant or a proprietary manufactured sealing strip specially designed for the purpose.

The shower should not be put into use until it has cured and is adequately dry

 

[Andy Allen]

The Standards regarding Tanking in domestic situations was changed recently.

In what way ??
I tiled a new house on site last week that had zero tanking.....big house builder too...

 

[One Day]

Look, I think you're expecting too much from BS5385. It isn't going to solve your problem here.
You really need to refer to the Consumer Rights Act 2015 which basically states that you are entitled to "reasonable care and skill".
That is a HUGE get out clause for idiot tilers.
BS5385 can be useful in court if you go that far, but it is only guidance.
Until the toothless and impotent Tile Association step up and press for regulation of our industry - specifically in the preparation and tiling of wet areas, this is going to happen more and more and more...

(and membership of the Tile Association counts for not a lot in my experience. It should - but it doesn't sadly)

 

[Soso]

Look, I think you're expecting too much from BS5385. It isn't going to solve your problem here.
You really need to refer to the Consumer Rights Act 2015 which basically states that you are entitled to "reasonable care and skill".
That is a HUGE get out clause for idiot tilers.
BS5385 can be useful in court if you go that far, but it is only guidance.
Until the toothless and impotent Tile Association step up and press for regulation of our industry - specifically in the preparation and tiling of wet areas, this is going to happen more and more and more...

(and membership of the Tile Association counts for not a lot in my experience. It should - but it doesn't sadly)

Yeah, it's not a great situation. We issued a consumer protection act letter to them and they came back disputing most of what we said was wrong which is the bulk of what I wrote in my original post plus loads of other stuff.

It is slowly looking likely to go to court but want to get my facts straight before it gets that far.

He has lied considerably on a number of counts but as is always the case, I have to prove it :-(

 

[jimthetiler]

That has to be the worst tiling work by a tiler I have seen for a long time.

 

[Soso]

That has to be the worst tiling work by a tiler I have seen for a long time.

Thanks for that, good to have someone else state this too. It's quite astounding that in his latest correspondence he thinks there is nothing wrong with it

 

[jimthetiler]

actually he is not a tiler that is evident on the grout finnish alone.Does all the grout look like that or is it just in one place.

 

[Soso]

actually he is not a tiler that is evident on the grout finnish alone.Does all the grout look like that or is it just in one place.

There are some places where it seems to be ok but a lot of places throughout that look like those pictures - A mixture i guess. Where he removed one tile that he hadn't cut properly, he replaced it and used silicon instead of grout. I haven't even posted pictures of the window areas where there are chips in the tiles where he has had to cut the tiles. If we walked in quickly, you might not see the big issues but as soon as you stop a minute to look around you can see it all clearly.

 

[Soso]

actually he is not a tiler that is evident on the grout finnish alone.Does all the grout look like that or is it just in one place.

And of course he has dot and dabbed throughout but is now denying this and saying he "back buttered" instead which we know he didn't.

 

[Dumbo]

And of course he has dot and dabbed throughout but is now denying this and saying he "back buttered" instead which we know he didn't.

If you have any spare tiles remove one tile to prove it . I watched that rogue traders guy core drill a drive then get the contractor back . When the contractor arrived he said if you cut that drive in half you would this and this . Rogue trader guy said "funny you should say that " and it went from there .