Basic adhesive technique and maintaining level tiles

[MrInteractive]

I am having a go at my first major tiling project and I seem to be having a few problems with basic technique of applying the adhesive and trying to maintain level tiles.

I am tiling a kitchen concrete floor which is reasonably flat, it has a couple of high spots of about 2mm over a distance of about 80cm. So I was hoping to eliminate these by applying sufficient adhesive and levelling the tiles as I go, and I am having a few problems.

I am using a large trowel with round notches of 7-8mm deep and UltraProRapid PB rapid adhesive as given to me by a trade tile shop.

1) When I apply the adhesive it seems to be quite liquid such that after applying the notched trowel across the adhesive the ridges begin to lose shape quite quickly, is this normal?

2) The instructions on the adhesive say
"Apply the adhesive in thickness of 3-6mm up to 1m^2 in one pass. On interior walls use a notched trowel leaving solid ribs i.e. 3mmx3mm at 6mm centres, 5mmx5mm at 10mm centres for wall tiles, and 8mmx8mm at 16mm centres for floor tiles. On floors and external areas use the solid bed trowel method"
Does this mean for floor tiles I apply a layer of adhesive in a 6mm depth and then use a pass of the notched trowel to raise the height to 8mm and the "centres" is referring to the distance between the mid-points of the ribs?
And my trowel has 7-8mm rounded notches, if I want the rib to be 8mm high as per the instructions presumably I must create the ridges with the trowel held at 90 degrees to the floor and not at 45 degrees as much advice offers.

3) Having placed the tile on the adhesive and twisted and pressed it a bit, what depth of adhesive would one expect to then have? If I want to compensate for 2mm differences in the floor I would have thought at least 4mm would be required in the low sposts so that where the floor is higher I would have at least 2mm thickness of adhesive, which seems like a reasonable minimum.

4) Presumably I should do a quick check on the level of each tile as I put it in. I have a small and a large spirit level. So with the small one I can check that a single tile is level and with the larger level I can check across multiple tiles. What do I do if a tile I have just laid is too low? If I am at the start of the laying and only have a couple of tiles I can press down on any tile to adjust them, but presumably with tiles laid later in the process I can only add more adhesive to build up the tile I have just laid. How is that done? Do I lift the whole tile up, apply more adhesive, and then attempt to create ridges of greater than 8mm, but how can I do that with a 8mm notched tile? Do I sweep the trowel across the area and avoid touching the floor with the bottom of the notches?

5) How level should the tiles be? Should a 90 cm spirit level across the tiles in all angles, show no deflection? Should the level be completely unable to rock up and down as one presses down on each end?

I had never realised what a skilled job this was!



Thanks in advance

 

[jay]

:welcome: what type of tile are you using and what size is it ,also size of area your doing:8:

 

[kilty55]

hi mr, i would ditch the rapid set and since its your first go at tiling id get a decent slow setting adhesive that gives you timee to work at your own pace.

mapei keraquik has a decent pot life and nice to use,for floors i use either a 12mm or 20mm trowel. 8mm i would use for walls mate. if you have slight diferences opt for the bigger trowel. also if the ribbed applied bed of adhesive is losing its shape then its not thick enough,you want a thick mix that will hold on your trowel but still be wet enough for the tiles to adhere to ,some adhesive bags have amounts of water to powder ratio on the back,

lay your first 3 centre tiles on your floor and adjust/check with a spirit ...with minor dips/flaws in the floor you should acheive a perfectly flat floor no probs ,,once u have your first 3 tiles flat use these as your base to follow the rest of your tiling good luck

 

[merlecollins]

I am having a go at my first major tiling project and I seem to be having a few problems with basic technique of applying the adhesive and trying to maintain level tiles.

I am tiling a kitchen concrete floor which is reasonably flat, it has a couple of high spots of about 2mm over a distance of about 80cm. So I was hoping to eliminate these by applying sufficient adhesive and levelling the tiles as I go, and I am having a few problems.

I am using a large trowel with round notches of 7-8mm deep and UltraProRapid PB rapid adhesive as given to me by a trade tile shop. Sounds like a Pourable Thick Bed adhesive - so it will be runnier than normal stuff

1) When I apply the adhesive it seems to be quite liquid such that after applying the notched trowel across the adhesive the ridges begin to lose shape quite quickly, is this normal? Pour it onto the floor and leave for a few minutes before serating - it should stand up better

2) The instructions on the adhesive say
"Apply the adhesive in thickness of 3-6mm up to 1m^2 in one pass. On interior walls use a notched trowel leaving solid ribs i.e. 3mmx3mm at 6mm centres, 5mmx5mm at 10mm centres for wall tiles, and 8mmx8mm at 16mm centres for floor tiles. On floors and external areas use the solid bed trowel method"
Does this mean for floor tiles I apply a layer of adhesive in a 6mm depth and then use a pass of the notched trowel to raise the height to 8mm and the "centres" is referring to the distance between the mid-points of the ribs?
And my trowel has 7-8mm rounded notches, if I want the rib to be 8mm high as per the instructions presumably I must create the ridges with the trowel held at 90 degrees to the floor and not at 45 degrees as much advice offers.I would be tempted to use a 10mmx10mm trowel on your floor - what size are the tiles?

3) Having placed the tile on the adhesive and twisted and pressed it a bit, what depth of adhesive would one expect to then have? If I want to compensate for 2mm differences in the floor I would have thought at least 4mm would be required in the low sposts so that where the floor is higher I would have at least 2mm thickness of adhesive, which seems like a reasonable minimum. 4mm after pressing the tile in

4) Presumably I should do a quick check on the level of each tile as I put it in. I have a small and a large spirit level. So with the small one I can check that a single tile is level and with the larger level I can check across multiple tiles. What do I do if a tile I have just laid is too low? If I am at the start of the laying and only have a couple of tiles I can press down on any tile to adjust them, but presumably with tiles laid later in the process I can only add more adhesive to build up the tile I have just laid. How is that done? Do I lift the whole tile up, apply more adhesive, and then attempt to create ridges of greater than 8mm, but how can I do that with a 8mm notched tile? Do I sweep the trowel across the area and avoid touching the floor with the bottom of the notches? I would normally just lift the low tiles individually and apply more adhesive to the affected corner or side (taking care not to exceed the recommended height) with my gauging trowel

5) How level should the tiles be? Should a 90 cm spirit level across the tiles in all angles, show no deflection? Should the level be completely unable to rock up and down as one presses down on each end? Depends if you want them LEVEL or FLAT? if just flat you can check each stretch of tiling by hand, and putting you level across a few tiles making sure flat without worrying about your bubble in the level if it's level you want really you should prepare the floor with SLC before you open a box of tiles

If you still need help, don't hesitate to post more questions

 

[MrInteractive]

Thanks for the responses.

The floor area is about 2m*2m and I am using 40cm square 7mm thick ceramic tiles.

Thany you kilty55, I was coming to the same conclusion about the adhesive. You would not believe the panic I was in last night when things were going badly and I aborted the whole thing and removed 1m^2 of adhesive and cleaned 4 tiles before everything went solid.

I did use the 3:1 ratio as recommended but I was just surprised how liquid the adhesive was. It would form ribs, but after some minutes ( I can't recall how long because of the panic I was in ) the ribs did deteriorate in shape. Should they hold their shape?

I have battened off a corner of the floor and I was intending to lay tiles in that corner.

The three tile thing is the conclusion I had come to as well, so I am very glad you have recommended that, at least I am thinking on the right lines.

If a tile is too low, what do you do? Do you apply more adhesive to the floor or start buttering up the tile?

 

[jay]

hi you may need to level floor prior to tiling as kitty mentioned change adh and mix thicker you also need to back butter tiles 12mm trowl hope this helps:8:

 

[davy_G]

Iye, first thing, get a bigger notched trowel! Minimum 10mm for floors
Tradetiler Tiling Rubi Stainless Trowels

 

[kilty55]

hi mr,,as merle says it may well be a pourable adhesive they have sold you which i would personally take back to the shop.

before starting check your floor with a spirit and if as you say there are only discrepancies of 2mm then a 10 or 12mm trowel will suffice but if there are bigger dips then you may want to self level these first to make it easier.

dont start tiling in a corner,,what is the room is it a kitchen floor? if it is find your focal point or centre,,you need to do something called laying out,this is where u find your centre of the room(measure wall to wall both sides. then draw a mark on the floor and using a tile mark where every tile lands this is to make sure when you come to the edges you dont have impossible or nasty cuts to do.

you want decent sized cuts especially to the door at least half a tile in size so they arent weak and look asthetically good to the eye

 

[MrInteractive]

I am using a large trowel with round notches of 7-8mm deep and UltraProRapid PB rapid adhesive as given to me by a trade tile shop. Sounds like a Pourable Thick Bed adhesive - so it will be runnier than normal stuff
[/QUOTE]

That's a relief.

1) When I apply the adhesive it seems to be quite liquid such that after applying the notched trowel across the adhesive the ridges begin to lose shape quite quickly, is this normal? Pour it onto the floor and leave for a few minutes before serating - it should stand up better

Rightio, but I think I might take the other advice and get some of the normal stuff to avoid panicing me.


And my trowel has 7-8mm rounded notches, if I want the rib to be 8mm high as per the instructions presumably I must create the ridges with the trowel held at 90 degrees to the floor and not at 45 degrees as much advice offers.I would be tempted to use a 10mmx10mm trowel on your floor - what size are the tiles?

They are 40cm*40cm. It sounds like I need another visit to Homebase to get a bigger trowel.

3) Having placed the tile on the adhesive and twisted and pressed it a bit, what depth of adhesive would one expect to then have? If I want to compensate for 2mm differences in the floor I would have thought at least 4mm would be required in the low sposts so that where the floor is higher I would have at least 2mm thickness of adhesive, which seems like a reasonable minimum. 4mm after pressing the tile in

Thank you very much for that info, nowhere I have seen this info mentioned in any book or on-line DIY guide, and without it an amateur has no idea what to be aiming for.

4) Presumably I should do a quick check on the level of each tile as I put it in. I have a small and a large spirit level. So with the small one I can check that a single tile is level and with the larger level I can check across multiple tiles. What do I do if a tile I have just laid is too low? If I am at the start of the laying and only have a couple of tiles I can press down on any tile to adjust them, but presumably with tiles laid later in the process I can only add more adhesive to build up the tile I have just laid. How is that done? Do I lift the whole tile up, apply more adhesive, and then attempt to create ridges of greater than 8mm, but how can I do that with a 8mm notched tile? Do I sweep the trowel across the area and avoid touching the floor with the bottom of the notches? I would normally just lift the low tiles individually and apply more adhesive to the affected corner or side (taking care not to exceed the recommended height) with my gauging trowel

Thank you very much for that info

5) How level should the tiles be? Should a 90 cm spirit level across the tiles in all angles, show no deflection? Should the level be completely unable to rock up and down as one presses down on each end? Depends if you want them LEVEL or FLAT? if just flat you can check each stretch of tiling by hand, and putting you level across a few tiles making sure flat without worrying about your bubble in the level if it's level you want really you should prepare the floor with SLC before you open a box of tiles

I would like both of course, the floor is really quite level and flat except for the odd 2mm rise. I paniced when I realised the tiles were not flat and aborted the whole lay and had to clean up one hell of a mess. Again, no DIY book or on-line help I have seen has mentioned the issue of level vs flat. I am much calmer about this issue now. I presume when you mean flat you do mean that a spirit level cannot rock whatsoever.

Thanks very much for the concise and informative comments. 🙂

 

[merlecollins]

If a tile is too low, what do you do? Do you apply more adhesive to the floor or start buttering up the tile?

Just put it on the floor with your gauging trowel to eliminate lips - but if your tiles are 400x400 and only 7mm thick I would be back buttering anyway as procedure

 

[merlecollins]

I would like both of course, the floor is really quite level and flat except for the odd 2mm rise. I paniced when I realised the tiles were not flat and aborted the whole lay and had to clean up one hell of a mess. Again, no DIY book or on-line help I have seen has mentioned the issue of level vs flat. I am much calmer about this issue now. I presume when you mean flat you do mean that a spirit level cannot rock whatsoever.

You need to look at what the area is for - is there anything getting fitted to the floor that needs it to be level, i.e. a WC pan or pool table :lol:
I don't think you need worry too much about being 2mm out of level :smilewinkgrin:
Just get the floor flat without lipsIf your concrete is flat and you use a good serating trowel you will be OK - just make sure you keep your trowel at the same angle when spreading

And the most important thing is - DON'T PANIC.....

 

[Colour Republic]

I would like both of course, the floor is really quite level and flat except for the odd 2mm rise. I paniced when I realised the tiles were not flat and aborted the whole lay and had to clean up one hell of a mess. Again, no DIY book or on-line help I have seen has mentioned the issue of level vs flat. I am much calmer about this issue now. I presume when you mean flat you do mean that a spirit level cannot rock whatsoever.

Thanks very much for the concise and informative comments. 🙂

You'd find it very hard to find a perfectly level floor, most will go out by more than 2mm, pefectly flat yes, perfectly level no

 

[MrInteractive]

hi you may need to level floor prior to tiling as kitty mentioned change adh and mix thicker you also need to back butter tiles 12mm trowl hope this helps:8:

I think I will go for that slower adhesive.

Thanks for the back buttering advice, I presume I do this in addition to the adhesive on the floor? I think that will help me a lot.

I am definitely going to get a bigger trowel!

Though I am confused then by the instructions on my adhesive which suggests 8mm ribs, as I quoted above. Presumably to get 8mm ribs one should use an 8mm trowel. Presumably you are suggesting creating 12mm ribs?

 

[MrInteractive]

hi mr,,as merle says it may well be a pourable adhesive they have sold you which i would personally take back to the shop.

before starting check your floor with a spirit and if as you say there are only discrepancies of 2mm then a 10 or 12mm trowel will suffice but if there are bigger dips then you may want to self level these first to make it easier.

dont start tiling in a corner,,what is the room is it a kitchen floor? if it is find your focal point or centre,,you need to do something called laying out,this is where u find your centre of the room(measure wall to wall both sides. then draw a mark on the floor and using a tile mark where every tile lands this is to make sure when you come to the edges you dont have impossible or nasty cuts to do.

you want decent sized cuts especially to the door at least half a tile in size so they arent weak and look asthetically good to the eye

I have spent a day laying out this floor to ensure that there are no small tiles required of less than half a tile width, and to ensure that all the edges are symmetrical and the maximum number of whole floor tiles are used and that the view from the door way looks good. It nearly drove me bonkers. I have dry layed out many of the tiles in critical areas and linked them together and checked right angles etc and I am reasonably confident I have at least got the layout right. That was difficult enough!

 

[jay]

I think I will go for that slower adhesive.

Thanks for the back buttering advice, I presume I do this in addition to the adhesive on the floor? I think that will help me a lot.

I am definitely going to get a bigger trowel!

Though I am confused then by the instructions on my adhesive which suggests 8mm ribs, as I quoted above. Presumably to get 8mm ribs one should use an 8mm trowel. Presumably you are suggesting creating 12mm ribs?

yes back butter all tiles and spread floor 12mm rib recomend laying a 1.5 m strait edge on floor first to see how bad bomps are:8: before laying tiles

 

[MrInteractive]

You need to look at what the area is for - is there anything getting fitted to the floor that needs it to be level, i.e. a WC pan or pool table :lol:
I don't think you need worry too much about being 2mm out of level :smilewinkgrin:
Just get the floor flat without lipsIf your concrete is flat and you use a good serating trowel you will be OK - just make sure you keep your trowel at the same angle when spreading

And the most important thing is - DON'T PANIC.....

I am getting calmer 😀

What do you mean by lips?

Presumably if I want 8mm ribs then I can get that from a 12mm trowel by angling at about 45 degrees? As 12*Sin(45) is approximately 8!

 

[kilty55]

lips are lippage,,where tiles are not flat and edges stick up mate.

use the 12mm trowel matethat bed shd be heavy enough for your tiles using an decent adhesive

 

[Sean fsy]

if the total area is only 4m2 i would suggest you dry fit all the tiles first, ie lay them without adhesive and do all cuts. then when you start laying them you can adjust the tiles as your laying them without a major difference in the time scale, that way you can still use the adhesive you have got as time will be on your side when laying. just remember to mark floor with pencil or crayon or something similar where the tiles were. also if you havent got one already i suggest you buy a small paddle mixer to put in a electric drill and mix the addy with it, keep checking and adding water till it gets to the right consistency so it doesnt just fall off the trowel.

Sean.

 

[DHTiling]

I had never realised what a skilled job this was!

:smilewinkgrin:...At last recognition for tilers...

 

[tfs]

Hi mate,

Based on my personal experience, I think slower setting adhesives are best would be best for you mate as you are just starting out. Adhesive I would suggest looking into would be Keraflex maxi and Adisilex p9, both are Mapei products. If you dont have a trade account though, you will get charged an arm and a leg.

The two adhesives I mentioned are not as versatile as Keraquick but they are slower setting with a pot life of up to 8hrs. Just means you will need to wait longer before you grout etc which isnt always ideal for you or the customer.

 

[merlecollins]

Keraflex maxi and Adisilex p9

Both are excellent adhesives

 

[Colour Republic]

if the total area is only 4m2 i would suggest you dry fit all the tiles first, ie lay them without adhesive and do all cuts. then when you start laying them you can adjust the tiles as your laying them without a major difference in the time scale, that way you can still use the adhesive you have got as time will be on your side when laying. just remember to mark floor with pencil or crayon or something similar where the tiles were. also if you havent got one already i suggest you buy a small paddle mixer to put in a electric drill and mix the addy with it, keep checking and adding water till it gets to the right consistency so it doesnt just fall off the trowel.

Sean.

are you saying do all your cuts at the dry laying stage?

 

[tfs]

I would also put in the exact water ratio as reccomended by the manufacturer, this will esnure you get the correct mix without the need to try and guess consistency as consistency varies from product to product.

 

[Sean fsy]

I would also put in the exact water ratio as reccomended by the manufacturer, this will esnure you get the correct mix without the need to try and guess consistency as consistency varies from product to product.

.

we all know this never happens in real life, discretion is better in my opinion. as for the dry cuts, yes do them first for the amount of tiling that is to be done. remeber this guy is no professional and after good advice so whats the point in telling him how a pro would do this job in a couple of hours. best to give him advice that will help him and not for him to waste more time and exspense on adhesives etc.

 

[tfs]

.

we all know this never happens in real life, discretion is better in my opinion. as for the dry cuts, yes do them first for the amount of tiling that is to be done. remeber this guy is no professional and after good advice so whats the point in telling him how a pro would do this job in a couple of hours. best to give him advice that will help him and not for him to waste more time and exspense on adhesives etc.

sorry mate, but it is the correct advice when Im telling him to mix his adhesive to the correct measurements.

Get a grip! it doesnt matter if your a pro or not if you dont mix the gear correct you aint it ain going to perform as it should. (they give you instruction for a reason)

Also, I didnt tell him how to do it in a few hours

read the post accuratly and get your facts right pal

I actua;y suggested he looked into keraflex and adisilex p9 (THESE WOULD MAKE THE JOB LONGER! NOT QUICKER)

 

[merlecollins]

sorry mate, but it is the correct advice when Im telling him to mix his adhesive to the correct measurements.

Get a grip! it doesnt matter if your a pro or not if you dont mix the gear correct you aint it ain going to perform as it should. (they give you instruction for a reason)

Also, I didnt tell him how to do it in a few hours

read the post accuratly and get your facts right pal

I actua;y suggested he looked into keraflex and adisilex p9 (THESE WOULD MAKE THE JOB LONGER! NOT QUICKER

Uh oh!! :lol::lol:

 

[Colour Republic]

.

we all know this never happens in real life, discretion is better in my opinion. as for the dry cuts, yes do them first for the amount of tiling that is to be done. remeber this guy is no professional and after good advice so whats the point in telling him how a pro would do this job in a couple of hours. best to give him advice that will help him and not for him to waste more time and exspense on adhesives etc.

I'm not trying to argue with you here, as everybody’s opinion is valid

But could you explain how you dry cut and why it would be simpler? I've never done it that way so I can only assume how you would go about it. In my mind it would be near impossible to do right as you'd be walking over unfixed tiles which would move and when you come to lay them you'd have to get them back into the original place spot on. Which would make it very difficult? Am I missing something here?

I'd agree that it's rare to get a measuring jug out and mix to exact specs, as I’m sure we all mix it to a consistency that feels right regardless of instructions (I sometimes wonder if water hardness can affect the consistency??) But as you say he isn't a pro so the best place to start would be to mix to instructions as he doesn't know what consistency it should be as he's already stated.

As I say, I’m not saying you’re wrong just interested in your dry cut methods that would make it easier for him? Are you assuming that skirting is going on top of the cuts?

 

[Sean fsy]

hes tried doing it by the book or do folk not read properly, obviously by the book is not the way to go in this situation. and anyone who says they always exactly do measuring to the nearest cls are talking utter nonesense. dry fixing the tiles is the only way to do jobs some times when you only have a single way in and out of a job(recent topic on this somewhere.) as said previous i would put my house on the fact i can dryfit a room then stick it down faster that mixing,cutting,mixing,cutting,mixing ,cutting etc etc. we are not talking 10,15,20,25m2 here we are talking 4m2!!!!!!!!!!! so wind your necks in and stop reading the tiling bible of excellense and use a bit of common sense.

 

[Colour Republic]

hes tried doing it by the book or do folk not read properly, obviously by the book is not the way to go in this situation. and anyone who says they always exactly do measuring to the nearest cls are talking utter nonesense. dry fixing the tiles is the only way to do jobs some times when you only have a single way in and out of a job(recent topic on this somewhere.) as said previous i would put my house on the fact i can dryfit a room then stick it down faster that mixing,cutting,mixing,cutting,mixing ,cutting etc etc. we are not talking 10,15,20,25m2 here we are talking 4m2!!!!!!!!!!! so wind your necks in and stop reading the tiling bible of excellense and use a bit of common sense.

It seems you are looking for an arguement, I thought I was perfectly polite to you.

Have a nice day won't you

 

[Sean fsy]

sorry mate, but it is the correct advice when Im telling him to mix his adhesive to the correct measurements.

Get a grip! it doesnt matter if your a pro or not if you dont mix the gear correct you aint it ain going to perform as it should. (they give you instruction for a reason)

Also, I didnt tell him how to do it in a few hours

read the post accuratly and get your facts right pal

I actua;y suggested he looked into keraflex and adisilex p9 (THESE WOULD MAKE THE JOB LONGER! NOT QUICKER)

hes tried doing it by the book or do folk not read properly, obviously by the book is not the way to go in this situation. and anyone who says they always exactly do measuring to the nearest cls are talking utter nonesense. dry fixing the tiles is the only way to do jobs some times when you only have a single way in and out of a job(recent topic on this somewhere.) as said previous i would put my house on the fact i can dryfit a room then stick it down faster that mixing,cutting,mixing,cutting,mixing ,cutting etc etc. we are not talking 10,15,20,25m2 here we are talking 4m2!!!!!!!!!!! so wind your necks in and stop reading the tiling bible of excellense and use a bit of common sense.

 

[tfs]

Dry laying deffo makes sense to get an idea when setting out but,I agree with Diamond that it would be difficult to dry lay and then do cuts too before fixing. you couldnt get the tiles back to the same locations that you had them they would be atleast a few mm out which could look bad on some cuts.

I always mix a full bag at a time so if the bag says to use 2.5 llitres of water then I have my water bucket marked out for this and then pore into a mixing bucket.

fair enough though many peeps mix by eye but its not good practice these days in my opinion as there are so many varieties of adhesives and they all have different consitencies.