Chipboard floor problem

[jonb1985]

Hi all, new to the forum,

I'm a customer of a bodged tiling job done 2 years ago by a general builder. He fitted my kitchen inc 25 sqm of floor tiling, onto 18mm green chipboard (on a suspended but well supported sub-floor). At the time I didn't know this was a 'no-no', and I recall him saying he was using primer & flexible adhesive. I didn't think any more about it. Now time has passed and 2 or 3 patches of tiles have come loose & grout cracked. I lifted a tile and the adhesive is perfectly bonded to the tile but not at all to the chipboard.

Having read the forum, I see the 'correct' solution is pull up all the tiles and overboard but this will cost me a fortune (the tiles alone were >£1K), also the room can't actually handle a thicker sub-floor, in addition I have wet UFH which I fear would lose effectiveness if overboarded further. (Note I can't challenge the builder, too long has passed and he's since suffering with a serious illness)

I don't know what products my builder used but I imagine the cheapest he could find, and I know he didn't add any flex additive to the grout. Also, it was June 2018 when there was a long heatwave and the tiles were in direct sunlight through glass doors, i.e. they got seriously hot (almost too hot to touch) immediately after being laid. So, it probably made his bodge worse.

So you can see I'm in a difficult situation and before I drastically uphaul the entire job I want to try just relaying the affected areas using the best products I can find, to see how it goes.

Two products that caught my eye (and claim to be compatible with chipboard) are:
1) BAL single part fastflex (I called BAL and they recommended this with APD primer and GT1 additive to grout)
2) Granfix Ultra Tile Fix Pro Flex S2

Elsewhere on this forum someone suggested Tilemaster Ultimate S2, though data sheet doesn't mention chipboard.

So, can anyone advise, which is the "best possible product" in this not ideal situation? I know it might not hold but want to at least try before ripping up the whole job at massive expense.

Thanks

 

[Dave]

Chipboard is a particle board and certainly should not be tiled directly too. Green chipboard is the worst for a bond.
if you use a product like Hardibacker, it will not affect heat conductivity.
imho you need a refit and not a bodge fix.

 

[Tile life]

Hi all, new to the forum,

I'm a customer of a bodged tiling job done 2 years ago by a general builder. He fitted my kitchen inc 25 sqm of floor tiling, onto 18mm green chipboard (on a suspended but well supported sub-floor). At the time I didn't know this was a 'no-no', and I recall him saying he was using primer & flexible adhesive. I didn't think any more about it. Now time has passed and 2 or 3 patches of tiles have come loose & grout cracked. I lifted a tile and the adhesive is perfectly bonded to the tile but not at all to the chipboard.

Having read the forum, I see the 'correct' solution is pull up all the tiles and overboard but this will cost me a fortune (the tiles alone were >£1K), also the room can't actually handle a thicker sub-floor, in addition I have wet UFH which I fear would lose effectiveness if overboarded further. (Note I can't challenge the builder, too long has passed and he's since suffering with a serious illness)

I don't know what products my builder used but I imagine the cheapest he could find, and I know he didn't add any flex additive to the grout. Also, it was June 2018 when there was a long heatwave and the tiles were in direct sunlight through glass doors, i.e. they got seriously hot (almost too hot to touch) immediately after being laid. So, it probably made his bodge worse.

So you can see I'm in a difficult situation and before I drastically uphaul the entire job I want to try just relaying the affected areas using the best products I can find, to see how it goes.

Two products that caught my eye (and claim to be compatible with chipboard) are:
1) BAL single part fastflex (I called BAL and they recommended this with APD primer and GT1 additive to grout)
2) Granfix Ultra Tile Fix Pro Flex S2

Elsewhere on this forum someone suggested Tilemaster Ultimate S2, though data sheet doesn't mention chipboard.

So, can anyone advise, which is the "best possible product" in this not ideal situation? I know it might not hold but want to at least try before ripping up the whole job at massive expense.

Thanks

Hi all, new to the forum,

I'm a customer of a bodged tiling job done 2 years ago by a general builder. He fitted my kitchen inc 25 sqm of floor tiling, onto 18mm green chipboard (on a suspended but well supported sub-floor). At the time I didn't know this was a 'no-no', and I recall him saying he was using primer & flexible adhesive. I didn't think any more about it. Now time has passed and 2 or 3 patches of tiles have come loose & grout cracked. I lifted a tile and the adhesive is perfectly bonded to the tile but not at all to the chipboard.

Having read the forum, I see the 'correct' solution is pull up all the tiles and overboard but this will cost me a fortune (the tiles alone were >£1K), also the room can't actually handle a thicker sub-floor, in addition I have wet UFH which I fear would lose effectiveness if overboarded further. (Note I can't challenge the builder, too long has passed and he's since suffering with a serious illness)

I don't know what products my builder used but I imagine the cheapest he could find, and I know he didn't add any flex additive to the grout. Also, it was June 2018 when there was a long heatwave and the tiles were in direct sunlight through glass doors, i.e. they got seriously hot (almost too hot to touch) immediately after being laid. So, it probably made his bodge worse.

So you can see I'm in a difficult situation and before I drastically uphaul the entire job I want to try just relaying the affected areas using the best products I can find, to see how it goes.

Two products that caught my eye (and claim to be compatible with chipboard) are:
1) BAL single part fastflex (I called BAL and they recommended this with APD primer and GT1 additive to grout)
2) Granfix Ultra Tile Fix Pro Flex S2

Elsewhere on this forum someone suggested Tilemaster Ultimate S2, though data sheet doesn't mention chipboard.

So, can anyone advise, which is the "best possible product" in this not ideal situation? I know it might not hold but want to at least try before ripping up the whole job at massive expense.

Thanks

Hi all, new to the forum,

I'm a customer of a bodged tiling job done 2 years ago by a general builder. He fitted my kitchen inc 25 sqm of floor tiling, onto 18mm green chipboard (on a suspended but well supported sub-floor). At the time I didn't know this was a 'no-no', and I recall him saying he was using primer & flexible adhesive. I didn't think any more about it. Now time has passed and 2 or 3 patches of tiles have come loose & grout cracked. I lifted a tile and the adhesive is perfectly bonded to the tile but not at all to the chipboard.

Having read the forum, I see the 'correct' solution is pull up all the tiles and overboard but this will cost me a fortune (the tiles alone were >£1K), also the room can't actually handle a thicker sub-floor, in addition I have wet UFH which I fear would lose effectiveness if overboarded further. (Note I can't challenge the builder, too long has passed and he's since suffering with a serious illness)

I don't know what products my builder used but I imagine the cheapest he could find, and I know he didn't add any flex additive to the grout. Also, it was June 2018 when there was a long heatwave and the tiles were in direct sunlight through glass doors, i.e. they got seriously hot (almost too hot to touch) immediately after being laid. So, it probably made his bodge worse.

So you can see I'm in a difficult situation and before I drastically uphaul the entire job I want to try just relaying the affected areas using the best products I can find, to see how it goes.

Two products that caught my eye (and claim to be compatible with chipboard) are:
1) BAL single part fastflex (I called BAL and they recommended this with APD primer and GT1 additive to grout)
2) Granfix Ultra Tile Fix Pro Flex S2

Elsewhere on this forum someone suggested Tilemaster Ultimate S2, though data sheet doesn't mention chipboard.

So, can anyone advise, which is the "best possible product" in this not ideal situation? I know it might not hold but want to at least try before ripping up the whole job at massive expense.

Thanks

The problem you have is the chipboard surface is not strong enough to hold the tile adhesive. I have seen it before where the chipboard dust and bits have come loose and are stuck in the tile adhesive that has come loose. Your only hope is to strengthen the top of the chipboard as the tiles come loose and replace them one by one.
The best way to do this is to PVA and staple tiling membrane in the holes where the loose tiles come out. ( it’s a standard fabric like membrane available at tile shops). It really holds tile adhesive well and the bond with the chipboard then becomes as strong as the staples.
Chisel the tile adhesive flat till it’s all smooth and if you can’t get it all off then use a pva/water/tiling/ adhesive mix to stick on your membrane. This will take up any voids.
If you replace enough of them as they come loose type thing you will find the whole floor strengthens up. They hold each other in place.
when you do take loose ones up do all you can to get flexible good adhesive primers etc under tiles next to it.
To strengthen the grout you can mix a good waterproof PVA or SBR into it. This will make the grout more glue like so it won’t crumble. It’s harder to clean off and check whet colour it will dry as before going ahead.
Good luck mate.

 

[CJ]

Nooooo, why do people STILL use PVA with tiling. Are you for real 😮

 

[demi34]

I am surprise people still use pva for tiling, no no no

 

[jonb1985]

Thanks a lot for the replies. @Tile life , actually my tiles lift off completely with the chipboard 100% intact and clean, ie the bond has failed not the chipboard itself. Interesting idea about stapling tiling membrane into the holes. I'm surprised/interested to hear that the staples would hold stronger than an adhesive. How many staples roughly would you suggest? (eg per 500x500 tile).

You mentioned chiselling, are you talking about removing the adhesive from the back of the tile? If so, it's good to hear that it's possible to salvage the tiles. The adhesive is stuck very firmly to them.

Can you recommend a good flexible adhesive? Are the new in my first email worth considering? (the bal one is really pricey but willing to try if it gives even a small chance of solving my problem without ripping up the whole lot!

If not pva would appreciate any better recommendations.

Thank you

 

[Andy Allen]

most flexible adhesive, and only one I would use is bal single part fast flex, grout with bal wide joint grout mixed with GT1 admix 50/50 with water...

 

[Tile life]

Thanks a lot for the replies. @Tile life , actually my tiles lift off completely with the chipboard 100% intact and clean, ie the bond has failed not the chipboard itself. Interesting idea about stapling tiling membrane into the holes. I'm surprised/interested to hear that the staples would hold stronger than an adhesive. How many staples roughly would you suggest? (eg per 500x500 tile).

You mentioned chiselling, are you talking about removing the adhesive from the back of the tile? If so, it's good to hear that it's possible to salvage the tiles. The adhesive is stuck very firmly to them.

Can you recommend a good flexible adhesive? Are the new in my first email worth considering? (the bal one is really pricey but willing to try if it gives even a small chance of solving my problem without ripping up the whole lot!

If not pva would appreciate any better recommendations.

Thank you

You can use a grinder with a ceramic blade to help you work away the adhesive from the back of the tile. Chiselling too hard may cause them to break. With the grinder you can cut slight channels in the tile adhesive and then break the adhesive off bit by bit. Very possible to salvage the tiles with a bit of patience.
Just use plenty of staples and glue the membrane down. The membrane will bond with the tile adhesive very well.

 

[jonb1985]

Thanks guys,

Sounds like BAL single part fastflex is the best choice of adhesive. (the original adhesive stuck to the tiles is brittle, so I don't think they used particularly flexible stuff).

Regarding bonding the membrane onto the chipboard; I assume I'll use the same adhesive but just a very thin layer such that the membrane is flush to the chipboard, staple it and then let it set before laying the tile on top. Does that sound right?

And should I do anything to prepare the chipboard too? e.g. BAL APD primer, and/or roughen the surface to provide a 'key'?

Worth a shot, not a lot to lose... if it works I'll save £1000's (and a lot of heartache) tearing up a nearly new kitchen.

Thanks,
Jon.

 

[Tile life]

Thanks guys,

Sounds like BAL single part fastflex is the best choice of adhesive. (the original adhesive stuck to the tiles is brittle, so I don't think they used particularly flexible stuff).

Regarding bonding the membrane onto the chipboard; I assume I'll use the same adhesive but just a very thin layer such that the membrane is flush to the chipboard, staple it and then let it set before laying the tile on top. Does that sound right?

And should I do anything to prepare the chipboard too? e.g. BAL APD primer, and/or roughen the surface to provide a 'key'?

Worth a shot, not a lot to lose... if it works I'll save £1000's (and a lot of heartache) tearing up a nearly new kitchen.

Thanks,
Jon.

Yes prime the chipboard with SBR then do that with the tile adhesive / membrane and staple it plenty. I promise your tile won’t come up again