Cook and Lewis kitchens...

[Mike]

i was just giving my view on the kitchens from the big sheds, although i probably don't fit half as many kitchens as you c.r. but i can still recognise a quality kitchen from a poor one (i'm not saying homebase/howdens are quality b.t.w)

 

[Colour Republic]

Even after trying to justify my reply. it STILL sounds snobby! I missed a few important words out but hey ho.

Out of all the shed kitchens I would say Wickes kitchens are one of the best value for money. But even then I wouldn't pay Wickes in-store price.

 

[Mike]

we don't have a wickes near here but i purchased my old kitchen (previous house) from them when they were selling kitchens in focus, it was a quality kitchen but i remember it more as they sent me clad on end panels when i'd planned my kitchen for replacement panels(the norm at the time) as this knocked my measurements out bu 54mm (which i didn't have) i complained to wickes and they refused to change them so i told them to come collect the lot. they soon changed their minds and sent a taxi driver with the panels. after travelling 300 miles and breaking down en route he got to my house at 7a.m. on a sunday morning. i felt bad for him . good service though :lol:

 

[doit4u]

Bought ours from Wickes just over 3 years ago so far no signs of any problems, but i don't suppose it will last as long as the Rationale factory built stuff that was there before. Any body know if this German company is still supplying in the UK?

 

[Thespanishtiler]

I know this is a tiling forum but I have just read this thread with great interest

I respect your opinion a great deal Colour Republic and would like your opinions.

I have a miele kitchen and can see/know the quality of its manufacture as I fitted it

I have also seen hand made bespoke solid wood kitchen going in so can see the value in them also

we are talking mass market kitchens here so from my experience :-

I have fitted howdens units in my utility room and used them in rentals along with magnets units and cant see any obvious difference in the carcases except you have a beech option with howdens

now the hinges and drawer boxes on a basic kitchen are all the same concept and if you upgrade a howdens kitchen or a magnets kitchen to soft close it is a blum motion system you get.

the work tops are like for like if you go for the same finish from a laminate range and if you go timber the same applies

if you get a corian or granite work top it is probably from another party

the appliances, sink etc are personal choice depending on budget/preference

all that leaves is the carcase construction and material, the doors, cornice, and decor end panels etc to compare

how do we then say one kitchen is better than another in the mass market price band

 

[Colour Republic]

The carcase construction is important and of course varies between manufacturers to manufacturer. Most kitchens are normally 18mm now as standard but some of the cheaper ranges like B&Q value range are 15mm. The back boards vary massively from 2mm hardboard (ala IKEA) up to 18mm. Howdens I believe are 8mm maybe 10mm, Wickes (Gower) are 15mm. The thickness of the back boards plays a large part in the carcases strength, in general the thicker it is, the more stable and square it is.

Next comes the construction, either 'glued and dowelled' or 'cam and dowelled'. Glued is considered better but and here's the big BUT it needs to have been glued together correctly if it's been glued together by monkeys all out of square you're pretty stuffed. Howdens are glued but I've lost count of the units I use to throw back at them for this reason.

Are the units flat pack or pre-assembled? It can't be underestimated how much time pre-assembled saves you, this should be taken in to account when comparing prices. Wickes kitchens come flat packed but if you buy at TP's trade outlet 'Benchmarx' they are pre-assembled. Same kitchens, pre-assembled, cheaper and in stock no 6-8 week lead time as with Wickes.

Next the hinges and drawer runners, Blum are considered the industry standard now for hinges and drawers, there are other brands which are either as good or better but Blum are a safe bet. IMO anything not soft-close these days is considered a 'budget' kitchen and a downgrade rather than soft-close being an upgrade. Been a while since I installed a howdens kitchen but the hinges were poor with clumsy adjustments, the type of hinges they use were standard 20 years ago, things have moved on and the difference in price between a crap hinge and say a blum soft-close is about £1.80 per pair. It's a no brainer. There is a bigger gap in price between drawers but still soft-close drawers are pretty much the standard.

Service gaps. IKEA kitchens are cheap considering they are Blum hinges and drawers as standard and thick 20mm lacquered doors but then they have poor carcases. Not only a flimsy hardboard back but no service gap behind the units to run services. This means considerable cost altering the services to suit. In addition no room for scribing, so if your walls are out, then so you kitchen will be too.

Doors - Just a simply high gloss door can vary, from 15mm to 22mm (18mm standard) so can the finish from laminated, foil wrapped or lacquered. Other types of doors could be solid timber, MFC, PVC, Veneered. These all affect the price and quality of the doors. So whilst two kitchens can appear similar if you look closely they can be worlds apart.

Carcase colour matching. Many of the sheds will do these 50-60% off units but most will come with either a white or beech carcase meaning decor panels need to be bought. Sometimes you'd buy them anyway if they are decorative but this is where they sting you buy not discounting these items and charging way over the odds, even stuff like kicker boards can be massively marked up. I've seen Wickes sell plinth for £130 a length when in fact you can pick it up for almost a 10th of that price. Other kitchen manufacturers will colour code their carcase at either little of no extra cost. Or you buy doors from one supplier, Like PWS Second Nature, and your carcases from another.


So taking all of the above into account (quality, ease of installation, availability, range and finish) I believe Wickes kitchens (although purchased from Benchmarx) come out on top from all the shed outlets (inc Magnets and Howdens). Don't get me wrong I install many different types of kitchens but if someone wants a cheap to mid-range kitchen it’s a Wickes (Gower) kitchen I would recommend. As I can supply what I feel is a better quality kitchen either cheaper or the same price as all the other offerings in that price bracket.

 

[Colour Republic]

One downside to Wickes kitchens is the size. The doors are 735mm high instead of the standard 720mm what this means is if you wanted to swap the doors at a later date you could only fit Wickes doors as others wouldn't fit.

 

[Colour Republic]

Lastly while we're on about sizes it's worth taking a look at the range offered. Some will do a very limited range of standard sizes meaning the design of the kitchen could suffer and look quite basic. with filler panels needed where space could have been utilised.

None of the sheds offer a big selection of different units but some are better than others. Even brands such as Crown Imperial or Four Seasons don't have huge ranges. In most cases your kitchen fitter can be a bit clever and adapt caracases and fronts to create a custom unit.

Failing that you could go down the seperates route where you buy the doors from one supplier like PWS or TKC, the carcases from another and interior fittings from someone else. These are far more flexible with sizes going up in 50mm increments rather than 100mm, the doors are modular so you can mix and match on a carcase for a better design. Prices are genrally more but not a whole world away by any means but there is a design cost attached to this as it's not just about taking a bunch of units and seeing what fits, which is what you get with the likes of B&Q as quite frankly some of their designs are quite shocking, it's a bit like getting in your car only to find the designer thought the gear stick would be better placed in the boot.:mad2: But designing something which is not only beautiful but functions well too.

errr i'll shut up now

 

[Stef]

C R, enjoyed reading the posts on here, i bought a new kitchen last year from the kitchen depot in glasgow, very good sturdy kitchen, rigid built 18mm carcass sides & backs. I had been to B&Q to look at the cook & lewis range & wickes but both were really expensive.
I wouldnt go near any of the big sheds now for a kitchen as they are all over priced.

 

[Colour Republic]

C R, enjoyed reading the posts on here, i bought a new kitchen last year from the kitchen depot in glasgow, very good sturdy kitchen, rigid built 18mm carcass sides & backs. I had been to B&Q to look at the cook & lewis range & wickes but both were really expensive.
I wouldn’t go near any of the big sheds now for a kitchen as they are all over priced.

Yeah the above only really relates to the Sheds and I’ve lumped Howdens, Magnets and Benchmarx in with that. In truth there are thousands of kitchens available to suit all pockets.

The north of England has a lot of kitchen 'outlets' that knock out kitchens for some bargain prices. Even more so around student towns and cities. I remember fitting a kitchen in Leeds where each unit cost pennies and was amazed at the quality for that price. It was nothing special by any means, in fact it was very basic but what they did do was provide a basic kitchen for a basic price and did it well. I went back about 6 years later and the kitchen still looked good. But I so easily could have bought from the place next door for the same price but after 6 months the doors could have dropped, the laminate start peeling....

I've mentioned PWS and TKC but there are other big providers of doors such as Mereway, BA Components, Burbridge... there are maybe 2 dozen big boys but then there are hundreds of smaller door manufacturers and that's before you start going into European suppliers and further afield. Then you have large distributors like Marpatt who take components and create their 'own' collections. It's a vast vast market.

It can get quite incestuous as well. Magnet is owned by Nobia, Nobia also own Gower who in turn supply TP/Wickes/Benchmarx and a load of other DIY outlets yet all compete against each other and offer different ranges.

So as I say the above info was only really relating to the well know sheds. Sometimes when selling or supplying kitchens it's easier if the client has a budget in mind then you can say right for that this is the best kitchen to suit, you can explain the pro's and con's then either drop the budget or increase it if it doesn't meet their requirements.

As I say there are of course kitchens to suit all budgets it's just a bit harder to ensure you're not getting ripped off and are getting the most for your hard earned.

 

[Rich]

Thanks for your info (and offers) guys. Heaps and heaps of info to feed my old man, a great help. I am no use on this as I have never fitted a kitchen in my life.

Especially thank you Mr republic, he is not far from you as it happens mate, do you know Peacehaven?

I will pass all of this on and then let him make up his mind what he wants to do.

 

[Colour Republic]

I'm fitting a bathroom in central avenue peacehaven as we speak!

 

[Rich]

I'm fitting a bathroom in central avenue peacehaven as we speak!

Its a small world after all! He is down on the cliff top. Its a shame he has all the trades lined up (he has a builder he really likes). Really nice part of the country, he used to live in Brighton, then Hove and now Peachaven. I have spent a lot of time over your neck of the woods throughout my life. I will give you a shout when i go up to do the tiling at his place after the bathroom and kitchen go in, Il buy you a coffee