Cracked porcelain floor tile in a wet room

[maggiemay]

Hi,

I wonder if anyone could give me some advice. We have recently had a wet room fitted. Two months after the installation, we noticed that a tile had cracked (not in the actual showering area, but immediately adjacent to it). The tiler insists that we must have dropped something on the tile to make it crack. We haven't. That being the case, what else could have made the tile crack? We have subsequently had another tile crack (next to the first one).

The tiles are porcelain and were laid on a wooden floor. Our tiler says he is happy to replace the two tiles, but that in doing so the underfloor heating will be ruined. We paid a lot of money for our dream bathroom and would like to retain the underfloor heating and have a perfect floor!

Any advice on how to proceed would be most welcome.

 

[wetdec]

Porcelain tiles don't crack unless under huge stress they are not like ceramic so I would guess there is more to this.

They can be removed without the loss of your ufh but I would worry about the surounding tiles getting damage...............difficult one

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[maggiemay]

Thanks for your reply. Sorry, you have me at a disadvantage - what's the difference between a porcelain and ceramic tile? And what sort of stress would a porcelain tile need to be under to crack?

Someone has suggested to us that perhaps the ply the tiler laid before the tiles may not have been thick enough and that it is the floor moving that is causing the tiles to crack - do you think this could be the case?

Also (sorry, loads of questions!) how do you think the tiler could avoid damaging the ufh?

Many thanks!

 

[theyomper]

Do the cracks run inline to each other? In other words follow the outline shape of the ply. Do you know what thickness of ply was used and how it was installed?
The more information the better.
With regards to uplifting and replacing the cracked tiles, this can be done with care and hopefully without compromising the UFH.
Let us have as much detail as possible and someone should be able to point you in the right direction.
Where abouts are you inthe UK?

 

[maggiemay]

Hi,

Thanks for your reply. No, the cracks don't run in line with each other. One tile is cracked across the corner (which as a lay person led me to think that maybe the adhesive hadn't been applied uniformly), the other has a fine crack down the middle of the tile.

Not sure what thickness the ply was - maybe three quarters of an inch,
nor how it was installed (checking with partner - will let you know asap).

We're located in Bamford in Derbyshire.

We really rated the fitter and tiler - he did a good job for us. We're just not sure whether we will be compromising ourselves if we let him replace the two cracked tiles, when in fact the problem will still exist whatever it may be, and the cracking reoccurs. He also insists that the ufh will be damaged.

Thanks - will get back to you asap with more information once partner has called back!

 

[Deleted member 9966]

Hi Maggiemay

We could also do with knowing what adhesive and grout was used. If you could find the actual manufacturers name and product, that would be really helpful.

GRR

 

[maggiemay]

Hi, me again!

It was three quarter inch marine ply which was screwed to the joists. Neither of us can remember the name of the adhesive used, except our tiler said it was super-dooper at around £40 a bag/tub. Hope this helps you to help us!

Many thanks once again.

 

[maggiemay]

PS am now searching for invoice to see if the name of the grout and adhesive are mentioned.

 

[stevee]

hiya maggie , £40 a bag/tub ......did he use tubbed adhesive on the floor?

 

[Gazzer]

hiya maggie , £40 a bag/tub ......did he use tubbed adhesive on the floor?

This could have been 2 part flexible

 

[wetdec]

Thanks for your reply. Sorry, you have me at a disadvantage - what's the difference between a porcelain and ceramic tile? Ceramic tiles are usually extruded from a machine and consist of compressed clay or dust. The biscuit (back of the tile) will be brown or white. Porcelain is a porcelain clay mix baked at very high temps creating an extremely hard biscuit which is generally beige in colour. The test is to wet the back ceramic sucks up moisture porcelaine is very slow. And what sort of stress would a porcelain tile need to be under to crack? If its been screwed into and not bedded correctly it may go but unlikely in your case. A high screw may cause it

Someone has suggested to us that perhaps the ply the tiler laid before the tiles may not have been thick enough and that it is the floor moving that is causing the tiles to crack - do you think this could be the case?

Doubtful if they are bedded correctly

Also (sorry, loads of questions!) how do you think the tiler could avoid damaging the ufh?

Take his time, grind from corner to corner and around tile b4 hitting it hard. Would need to know whats under there really ??

Many thanks!

Personally I think the tile has always been cracked maybe it hit a high screw on fitting when the bed was soft / not adequate or its a weak tile. A few possibles and no one to blame , I think I would spend time looking for the solution



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[maggiemay]

Hi guys,

Have now unearthed the invoices for our wetroom, but unfortunately no mention is made of the type of adhesive or grout used. Do you therefore think we've come to the end of the line?

I suppose where I am is here: my partner and I are not plumbers, fitters or tilers. We therefore employed a professional to do our wetroom for us. We didn't expect, a couple of months after completion that we would have one cracked tile, shortly followed by another. As I said in my earlier message, our tiler insists that something has been dropped on the first tile. We know that we haven't dropped anything - a bit sad, but we've waited a long time for this bathroom and are treating it with kid gloves!!

Is there anyway of knowing whether our tiler is at fault either in the laying of the plywood on the original floorboards or in the amount of adhesive used that could have caused these tiles to crack? If the thickness of ply is wrong or the amount of adhesive used is wrong, what's to stop it happening again? Surely in that case, it would be best to take the floor up and start again?

Thanks once again!

 

[CJ CERAMICS]

sounds to me (would need to see it for definate) like there are voids under the tiles that are cracked, this is caused by none contact of tile and adhesive creating a weak point under tile. maggie do you have any surplus tiles? if it was me i would come back and remove the tiles and replace or at least investigate why they are cracking. check that the rest of the tiles are fitted correctly with no voids by tapping on the tile. the tile should sound dense if correctly layed.
chris.
p.s this is only my opinion on the facts you have given and does not mean that the tiler is at fault but needs investigating.

 

[wetdec]

Is there anyway of knowing whether our tiler is at fault either in the laying of the plywood on the original floorboards or in the amount of adhesive used that could have caused these tiles to crack? If the thickness of ply is wrong or the amount of adhesive used is wrong, what's to stop it happening again? Surely in that case, it would be best to take the floor up and start again?

If the 2 cracks dont run concurrent then imo you have a weak point from any of the possibilities mentioned which would leave the rest of the floor in good order.

All we are able to do is give an opinion on the info you have provided we are none of us in a position to alot blame as we are not on the spot and able to examine the area. Looking for a solution is the best way to proceed and keeping your tiler on side as he knows his actions would be a sensible move at this point imo...................


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[Deleted member 9966]

maggiemay

I think you should ring your tiler and ask him to come back and look at the tiles. In the meantime as CJ Ceramics says, tap the cracked tiles gently to see if they sound hollow underneath.

As for the underfloor heating, check with the manufacturer to see if lifting tiles will cause it a problem.

you need the tiler to tell you what adhesive and grout was used and upon exactly what he tiled.

Thanks
GRR

 

[maggiemay]

Hi Chris,

Thanks for this. We do have spare tiles and the tiler has said he will replace the cracked ones - but at the cost of irretrievably damaging our underfloor heating. We were really pleased with his work but at the moment, his attitude is very bullish and he's giving no quarter! Initially, he said we had dropped something then on his second visit to see the second cracked tile he said that of course the floor will be moving which is why he used a flexible adhesive. I would happily let him replace the two tiles if we could guarantee that we didn't lose the underfloor heating and that it wouldn't happen elsewhere subsequently.

I think your suggestion is reasonable, and according to other forum members if done carefully, we shouldn't lose the underfloor heating. I just wish our tiler was being as reasonable! I was hoping to employ the services of another tiler to act as mediator but the Tile Association are quoting £770 for the service!! We could certainly have the floor retiled for that!

Maggie May

 

[Time's Ran Out]

A porcelain tile is not going to break on a corner unless something has been dropped on a unsupported section of tile - this could have been done after it was fixed by another trade and only noticeable once the discolouration of the surface showed it up.
It could also have been broken in the box during transportation and not noticed until the same discolouration showed it up.
This could also be the case for the tile next to it - being damaged in the same box, or more likely being a straight line due to excessive movement in the base.
These tiles can and should be removed by cutting the joint grout and levering the tile up from the broken corner. I didn't read if the underfloor heating was covered by a self levelling screed before the tiles were fixed but this should allow the tiles to come up easier. Care should be taken if it is only an adhesive bed but any damage to UFH can be repaired with a kit as a last resort.


Timeless John.

 

[CJ CERAMICS]

Hi Chris,

Thanks for this. We do have spare tiles and the tiler has said he will replace the cracked ones - but at the cost of irretrievably damaging our underfloor heating. We were really pleased with his work but at the moment, his attitude is very bullish and he's giving no quarter! Initially, he said we had dropped something then on his second visit to see the second cracked tile he said that of course the floor will be moving which is why he used a flexible adhesive. I would happily let him replace the two tiles if we could guarantee that we didn't lose the underfloor heating and that it wouldn't happen elsewhere subsequently.

I think your suggestion is reasonable, and according to other forum members if done carefully, we shouldn't lose the underfloor heating. I just wish our tiler was being as reasonable! I was hoping to employ the services of another tiler to act as mediator but the Tile Association are quoting £770 for the service!! We could certainly have the floor retiled for that!

Maggie May

hi maggie,
sadly small problems can quite often blow out of all proportion.
the tiler may feel that you are questioning his ability and workmanship
which from reading your posts you are most certainly not as you have said the standard of his work is very good. explain to him in a concise way that the problem with these 2? tiles is spoiling what otherwise is an excellent job and you need to find the cause and remedy it so you can enjoy your wetroom. ufh should be ok when lifting tiles but as i say without seeing it its hard to tell, you may be better speaking to the manufactures of the ufh and see what recommendations they can give. But you must keep negotiations with the tiler open (this may include lots of tongue biting) but it will be worth it in the end and try to work towards a hassle free solution.
chris

 

[maggiemay]

Thanks guys for all your suggestions! I'll let you know how we go on .......

maggie