First time tiling floor with porcelain - please advise

[alanb]

Good evening all. I am about to undertake my first porcelain tiling job on a kitchen floor. It will be the first time I've tiled a floor so I'm looking for all the advice I can get basically.

The tiles are 450x450mm and will be applied to a concrete floor that has been down for some 20 years and seems perfectly flat. I have read various forums and spoken to several people who have laid porcelain tiles before but their advice does not always agree.

The tiles are italian and the english translation of the manufacturer's recommendation says to use the 'two-layer spreading system' - is this just another term for back-buttering or am I missing something? It also does not specify whether the adhesive should be applied with a solid or notched trowel - can anyone provide any firm opinions on this?

Many thanks in advance for your help and advice.

 

[faithhealer]

welcome to the forum Alan. Never heard of the two layer thing, but I would see what the more experienced lads have to say tomorrow!

 

[muffinman]

Hi ya graham prime 1st with apd acrillic ,adhesive is one part flexy, see if you need to seal the tile 1st (ask the supplyer ), if you do , seal with a impregnator, let them dry , lay them , seal again, grout , seal again , try to work as clean as possible

 

[muffinman]

graham one other thing mate ,if the tile is dark in colour ,then you want dark adhesive ,
light in colour then white adhesive ( one part flexi)

 

[alanb]

Thanks muffinman - but who's graham?

The retailer (East Midlands Ceramics) suggested BAL Rapidset would be a suitable adhesive and I shouldn't need the one part flexi. Why do you suggest the latter?

Please excuse my ignorance, I'm a mere DIY'er, but could you recommend a technique I should use for spreading the adhesive, i.e. solid bed or notched, what thickness etc? I guess you don't recognise the term used in the Italian instructions - "two layer spreading system" either?

Thank you again for your help so far.

 

[GRAYLIN]

Hi Alanb,

Firstly welcome to the forum.

Assuming the concrete surface is level and a self-leveller is not required.

1. Prime concrete with acrylic primer.
2. Using a notched floor trowel, apply cement based adhesive containing a flex additive or a 1 part multiflex. (Rapidset is only to be used for ceramic on concrete floor.)
3. Cut using a 10mm wheel in dry cutter or electric wet cutter. I use both.

Muffinman is spot on with the sealing instructions.

Porcelain is the strongest tile.

Hope this helps.

 

[alanb]

GRAYLIN, firstly thank you for your kind welcome and generous advice.

I was advised by EMC to use BAL Rapidset and I would only need the flexi equivalent if laying on something like wood. Also the BAL Rapidset instructions do say it is ok for porcelain. However, I think I should probably play safe and accept your advice. I also take on-board the advice about sealing.

I intend to use a solid bed trowel with a 10mm deep notch (20mm width) and probably a wet cutter.

Could you point me to a good example of an acrylic primer for the concrete?

Many thanks

 

[GRAYLIN]

Hi

I hear what your saying about rapidset however I learnt at NorthEast Tiling and have used that advice since, with no probs to date.
I get my acrylic primer from Topps Tiles. Some peeps use pva
When you have done the job it would be nice to see some pics of the finished job.
Good Luck.
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Sorry had not finished.

Some peeps use PVA but for 100% seal use acrylic primer.

 

[Fekin]

I have not heard of this spreading system, but to guarantee 100% coverage with the adhesive then people often back butter the tiles as well as using a 100% coverage 10mm or 12mm trowel.
To be able to walk on the floor and grout it sooner you can use Bal rapidset with a flexi additive and it will be just fine.

Personally I wouldn't bother priming the floor before laying but different people have different methods, and the porcelain tiles only need a sealer if they are polished and not glazed.

You use a sealer on polished porcelain because the polishing process opens millions of tiny tiny holes in the face of the tile, where dirt and grime, and grout can get into, giving a dull look to the tile, loosing the polished effect, where as a glazed porcelain tile is just that, it has a glaze on top of the tile, so nothing can get into the tile as the glaze acts as a barrier anyway.

The amount of times a polished porcelain tile needs sealing depends on what make of impreginator sealer you decide to buy.
I use Fila impreg sealer and have had no problems just giving polished tiles one or 2 coats of sealer before laying them, then grout, and clean up.

Ans always use a good flexible adhesive and grout too, because standard grout does not have a good grip on porcelain.


Hope this helps.

 

[alanb]

Thanks again for that, just one more thought though. What benefit does the rapid setting type adhesives give other than a faster setting time? For a newbie like myself, would it not be a safer bet to use a non-rapid setting adhesive to give me more time to work, or does that introduce problems of another kind?
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Fekin, much appreciate your advice too. Wow this forum is excellent.

 

[Fekin]

What benefit does the rapid setting type adhesives give other than a faster setting time? For a newbie like myself, would it not be a safer bet to use a non-rapid setting adhesive to give me more time to work, or does that introduce problems of another kind?

Rapidset is only used when you want the adhesive to set faster than a normal standard cement based adhesive, so if you think you might not be tiling quick enough then stick to a normal flexi cement based adhesive.

For porcelain tiles on concrete floors I use either Bal rapidset or Bal goldstar.

 

[muffinman]

one part flexy give you the sucksion with porc, as it is porus , if not porus it will still cover your back , sorry about the name (graham)lol when mixing up do half a bucket , you will have two hours to work with .

 

[DHTiling]

Hi alanb......you will be ok with BAL rapid-set on porcelain tiles..it has porcelbond technology so no probs using it on concrete.....you will however need to use a flexible grout as unmodified grout will not adhere to the porcelain tiles edges....Only through bodied porcelain tiles ( polished or mat finish) need sealing..make sure you use one suitable for porcelain as not all impregnators are.....one coat will suffice and wipe any residue off before it totally dries as it will you will not be able to remove it after....as for the two coat method.. this is simply floor trowel spreading and tile backskim.....if you use a solid bed trowel and lightly backbutter you will get max contact with tile and floor.....

good luck.........

 

[muffinman]

ALL WAYS PRIME NO MATTER WHAT just to be on the safe side acillic

 

[Raja]

Hi Alan i have tiled a few small floors with porcelain tiles from italy as i have close friend who is italian and buys everything imported from italy wen i did his floor used Bal GOLD STAR adhesive for the concrete floor and then tiled as normally would do. The tiles can be a little hard to cut but as no special extra work is required. As for trowel sizes i personally use a 10mm notched left handed one.

 

[GatesheadCol]

Hi Alan,

Ive just done a floor in simiolar tiles, porcelain, didnt need sealing as were glazed. As said before, mix only half buckets full of addy at a time.

Im relatively new to this game and managed this in 30 mintes using Bal Rapid Set white addy with porcel bond.

Use a 10mm whell on a dry cutter, score once and once only , very firmly and use a snap action to snap the tiles with the handle.

Take your time and post some pics when done.

p.s. mine was over under floor heating so had to be very careful

 

[alanb]

Thank you to you all for your generous advice. I'm now a lot more confident that I can get this job done with no major worries. The main point that is coming through strongly from this is that everyone has their own preferred methods, techniques and materials. There seems to be a consensus of opinion on issues such as sealing polished porcelain but differing opinions on others such as to prime or not to prime, adhesive type and trowel type.

So, in summary, I will:
- prime the concrete (to be on the safe side),
- use a thick bed solid bed trowel,
- lightly back-butter,
- use a flexible grout
- and seal appropriately with an impregnator seal for use with porcelain

I think that's just about got all bases covered, oh except do I use BAL Rapidset or BAL Repidset Flexible? That decision might just be down to cost.

Again, I appreciate all the advice offered, and I'm truly staggered by the generosity displayed - thank you all.
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GatesheadCol, thanks for your advice. How did you cut the corners around the doorway etc, I presume you used an electric wet cutter?

 

[GatesheadCol]

Yes mate I used a wet cutter. Went through 2 blades doing both the bathrooms too as they were really hard porcelain tiles.

To prime or not to prime.

Cant hurt if you prime and its not needed, so might as well to be sure.

Good luck and post some pics