Floating Floor Advice

[cjbombero]

Had a call today to quote for a replacement kitchen floor, 15m2 of 600 x 300 porcelain. Haven't been for a look yet but the customer has told me its a floating floor and that she thinks there has been a leak and some of the chipboard has rotted/warped. House is approxiamtely 20 years old and currently has lino down.

Two main questions really but any other advice is always helpful!

1. Does anyone ever tile onto floating floors? If I was to take the job on I would lift all of the floor and reboard (18mm ply at 6" centres?) and use a 2-part ady with a flexi grout.

2. If the kitchen has been completely ripped out whats the best way to make sure the floor has been damaged by an internal leak and not due to damage to the Damp Proof Membrane?

The work is always welcome but I don't like to leave myself walking away wanding if the floor is going to stay in one piece.

Thanks

cjbombero :mad2:

 

[cjbombero]

Also, if I walk away from it what would you recommend the customer put down instead?

 

[White Room]

I have'nt done a floating floor, hope someone has more info than me

 

[poynton phil]

I'v never tiled one either, as i was told its a no no.

 

[The Legend; Phil Hobson RIP]

As above, bad news,:ban:

 

[CJ]

Floating floors have a habit of coming back and biting ya on the ar55e.

Talk her into putting down laminate :smilewinkgrin:

 

[peckers]

I have tiled a few floating floors over the last ten years and have not had a problem yet! How i do them, Firstly check chipboard flooring for damage and walk up and down along the joints to see if they are pulling apart as your weight passes over them, also if there is big dips in the floor then the insulation underneath has sunk for some reason, if there is any off the above then the flooring sheets will need to be lifted and it put right first, also there should be at least 10-15mm expansion between the chipboard sheets and the walls this gap is usually covered by the skirting board!(alot of the time this gap has been to small and the flooring sheets have expanded and are touching the walls which makes the flooring boards arc in the middle which makes them rise and when you walk over them you get a cushion affect, again if this is the case then this will have to be sorted first. Then i over ply the floor with 18mm wbp ply or marine grade and screw down at 200mm centres, leaving a 10-15mm gap around all the edges, then i tile with 2 part flexible floor tile adhesive and grout again leaving 10-15mm gap around the edges.

It is better if you can remove the skirting and put this back over the top of the tiles to hide the expansion gap cut bottom of door linings etc so there is an expansion gap and the tiles are able to slide under them if the floor moves.

if you cant remove the skirting then i would put a piece of wooden quadrant down against the skirting to hide the joint, this isnt the neatest way but it does the job,

You can contact mapei technical and they will spec a floating floor for you telling you what to do and what to use, I hope this helps...

 

[doug boardley]

I'd walk away from it:yikes:

 

[peckers]

I'd walk away from it:yikes:

:lol: but they do do specific adhesives and grouts for floating floors, so if you follow the specs and do the preperation correctly then there should be no failure, I do admit they can be more work and you have to allow for this and put a clause in the quote,
However if there is a water leak after you have finished and the floor swells then this is another story as this isnt down to you but the leak!!

 

[cjbombero]

Thanks for all the input, it's good to get a range of opinions. I live in Milton Keynes where there are literally thousands of houses with floating floors, if a firm like Mapei is putting their name to a product it must have been well tested.

The process that peckers described makes sence in my mind, is anyone else out there following this technique? I don't want to stray too far from the thread but is anyone willing to put together a rough price for the work?

1. Make existing chipboard floor suitable by creating expansion joints and replacing damaged areas.
2. Over board with 18mm WPB, securing at 200m centres (skirting board has been removed so the expansion joints shouldn't be too hard)
3. Lay 15m2 cream polished porcelain 600 x 300 using 2 part flexable adhesive.
4. Grout using flexi grout and seal.

Thanks for all the advice, keep it coming!

cjbombero

 

[peckers]

I always price the preperation work and repairs plus replacing skirting etc on day rate, plus materials supplied, However put in a clause as there is normally a bit more then you have seen, As for the tiling work your normal charge for per m2 plus an extra 10-15 % because there is normally a bit of packing up etc with floating floors and allow extra for adhesive too!!

 

[DHTiling]

:lol: but they do do specific adhesives and grouts for floating floors, so if you follow the specs and do the preperation correctly then there should be no failure, I do admit they can be more work and you have to allow for this and put a clause in the quote,
However if there is a water leak after you have finished and the floor swells then this is another story as this isnt down to you but the leak!!

ALL adhesive manufactuers will spec virually Zero deflection before guarenteeing thier products on a floating floor....even when using a S2 spec adhesive the deflection has to very minimal...

So before even attempting to tile a floating timber floor, you need to be able to meet this criteria.
This is mostly done by lifting the floor and framing the floor underneath to support the floating boards... or even swapping for a screed.


IMHO. i would not go anywhere near a floating floor if i had to tile straight onto it as it was.

 

[peckers]

ALL adhesive manufactuers will spec virually Zero deflection before guarenteeing thier products on a floating floor....even when using a S2 spec adhesive the deflection has to very minimal...

So before even attempting to tile a floating timber floor, you need to be able to meet this criteria.
This is mostly done by lifting the floor and framing the floor underneath to support the floating boards... or even swapping for a screed.


IMHO. i would not go anywhere near a floating floor if i had to tile straight onto it as it was.

As you have said dave," adhesive manufactuers will spec virually Zero deflection before guarenteeing thier products on a floating floor....even when using a S2 spec adhesive the deflection has to very minimal..."
This i totally agree with and if the tiler is unsure that they are unable to achieve this then yes walk away!

And yes it would be better to frame out the floor which would now make it a suspended floor and not a floating floor! This would make it more sturdy and better to tile onto, but it also involves more work and would cost the client more money, But it is a better floor!!!

And in an even better world then rip it all out and screed the floor, perfect for tiling onto! You may have to wait a while why the screed dries before you can tile it and this is an inconvienience for the oap, who only has one bathroom, But this then is no longer a floating floor! So should the adhesive manufacturers stop making products for floating floors and giving out the specs as to how to prep them and what to use? but screeding it will make it a better floor!!!!!

All i am saying is that if you can achieve minimal deflection in the floating floor then surely if it is specked by the adhesive manufacturer then it should be ok? and if you are unsure that you can achieve this then dont touch it! or screed it or frame it as dave says!!

Quote: IMHO. i would not go anywhere near a floating floor if i had to tile straight onto it as it was!!!

As i have said in my previous post that i make the existing floor as sound and as solid as i can and then i overply with a minimum of 18mm wbp ply or equivelent!

I hope that i have not upset anyone or given missleading information in my previous reply to this post! All i did was gve information on how i do them!
if i think that it can be achieved! if i couldnt achieve it then i would advise another route to go down

 

[CJ]

I would still walk............or it may........or may not come back to bite you.

 

[cjbombero]

Peckers i'm sure you haven't offended anyone, the whole point of the forum is to share experiences and advice. If everyone agreed there wouldn't be much point!

I have been to see the customer this evening, the floor has quiet a lot of deflection in it so I told them it would be too much of a risk to tile direct to the floor. They are adament that they want a polished porcelain floor as their neighbours have a tiled kitchen.

What would the process be to screed the floor? The customer is happy to lift the existing floor, I have only ever used latex screeds to patch/level floors by 3-5mm so i'm not sure how I would go about the process. Also if a screed was layed would I then be able to use an SPF onto the floor after priming?

cjbombero

 

[peckers]

Peckers i'm sure you haven't offended anyone, the whole point of the forum is to share experiences and advice. If everyone agreed there wouldn't be much point!

I have been to see the customer this evening, the floor has quiet a lot of deflection in it so I told them it would be too much of a risk to tile direct to the floor. They are adament that they want a polished porcelain floor as their neighbours have a tiled kitchen.

What would the process be to screed the floor? The customer is happy to lift the existing floor, I have only ever used latex screeds to patch/level floors by 3-5mm so i'm not sure how I would go about the process. Also if a screed was layed would I then be able to use an SPF onto the floor after priming?

cjbombero

If you have no experience in screeding then i would advize that you get a screeder to do this for you! I would put down dpm and lap this up the walls the excess can be cut off after screeded.
I would also advize that there are expansion joints put in between the new screed and the rest of the floating floors doorways etc.and around the perimeter of the room!
You will have to wait for the screed to dry out before you tile onto it 4-6 weeks depends how quickly it dries! when dry prime it with an acrylic primer prior to tiling!

 

[DHTiling]

Timber floating floors should be banned...:smilewinkgrin:.....


Peckers.!!...good advice above mate..

 

[cjbombero]

Yeah thanks for the advice, i'm starting to feel a bit out of my depth here. I know that they have already had a couple of quotes from other tilers who didn't even seem bothered about the floating floor! Probably going to give the customer all the advice I can and then step out of the way, you never know she might want a bathroom doing in a years time!

Certainly an interesting thread from my point of view, I have learnt a lot more about floating floors and the pitfalls involved.

Thanks to all that contributed

cjbombero

 

[kilty55]

wouls a stronger screed like fibreplan be better if you were going to take peckers advice on this mate?

 

[Colour Republic]

Yeah thanks for the advice, i'm starting to feel a bit out of my depth here. I know that they have already had a couple of quotes from other tilers who didn't even seem bothered about the floating floor! Probably going to give the customer all the advice I can and then step out of the way, you never know she might want a bathroom doing in a years time!

Certainly an interesting thread from my point of view, I have learnt a lot more about floating floors and the pitfalls involved.

Thanks to all that contributed

cjbombero

This is a perfect time to learn! If you don't try it you will never know how to do it. I would price it up with the help of a screeder, explain to the customer that it is a fairly specialist area and you need to get an outside contractor to screed the floor.

If the customer respects your advice and doesn't mind the added cost to insure a good job then make sure you are on site when it goes in, even offer to labour for the screeder for free. This way you'll know if it is something you feel comfortable doing in the future on your own. As you say MK is a new town with lots of floating floors, so if that's your area, are you not better to add this to your list of services?

If they decide that the added cost is too much and they want to take a gamble then no love lost but at least you tried.

Good luck

Edit: how thick is this floor anyway? do you know?

 

[marc1106]

only done 1 floating floor(insurace work ) and i had to lay Dow 200x insulation (more dense than celotex or jabolite) then lay 25mm Wisa T&G boards over that, then used flexi addy and grout all specced by the client and the loss adjuster who done a ton of research, as this was the 3rd floor to go in after their flood, first 2 where just lashups, that was 2 years ago and ive not had a comback YET:sick:! but as a rule i go for the rip it up and screed the bugger personally!