grouting nightmare

[mnemonix]

Hi folks, I hope you can help me as I've spent the last 3 months digging out and replacing my kitchen floor with an insulated concrete slab, dpm and tiling it, all myself, only to fall at the last hurdle... grouting.

I'm using these tiles which Wickes claim to be porcelain. I've laid them using BAL rapidset and am attempting to grout them using BAL Superflex Wide Joint GREY powdered grout, which I'm mixing up using a scale to get the proportions spot on, so here's the crack:

1. It's seriously runny. No need to 'push' into the joints, it just runs in to them. Is this right? I've done two test areas so far with the same results.
2. The tiles have a matt, slightly grainy finish which seems to catch and grab on to the grout so I can't get them very clean with the grout float.
3. It's taking an age to set... I can't sponge them after 10 or 15 minutes. I waited over an hour to sponge them for the first time and it was still just smearing more grout over the tiles. I don't want to overwork or over-wet the grout (this pulls the latex or polymers up to the surface yes?), nor pull it all out of the joints so after a second unsatisfactory sponge an hour later I just had to leave it.
4. 24 hours later, it's set but looking a bit light in colour to me; first though, I have to clean the tiles. Water's not shifting it, so I'm using Fila grout residue remove at 1:10 which seems to clean the tiles ok but my grey grout now seems even lighter and a bit patchy now too...

All I want is a nice mid grey grout between my tiles... Can anyone please help me?!?! I'm running out of test areas, and have read that darker grouts are difficult to work with, though I'm not sure I should need one anyway; the stuff just doesn't seem to behave as it says on the bag or as I've read in this and other forums!

Cheers.

 

[mnemonix]

Some pictures, as I know how much you love them:



First one after removing excess with the grout float. It realy clings to the tiles.
Next, after a second sponge down nearly two hours later - one wipe with a spotlessly clean sponge is enough to smear it (i'm using two buckets etc)
Third, next day, cleaned the tiles, but should the grout be this light? it's patchy too, though the photo's too small to show it.

 

[kendo1]

Don't use as much water.
It's like cake mixtures, it depends on the weather- humidity can change the amount of water you need.

You should be aiming for a very thick cream consistency.

 

[mnemonix]

Whipped or straight out of the pot? :lol:

To me, even thick cream out of the pot is just a pourable liquid which I guess is what I had already.

 

[kendo1]

It has to be thick enough to stay on your grout float at an angle.
Mix a little water in at a time until all the dry mix is gone. You need less water than you think.

 

[mnemonix]

Honestly, I just read the instructions. I'm not doubting you at all, but I figured BAL would know how much water their product would need and possibly even warn you if any variation was needed.

If you're right, will this resolve my specific problems: the difficult clean up, and more importantly, the very light patchy colour of the grout?

Cheers.

 

[nybor62]

your mixture sounds way to runny, imo bal super flex is a great grout ,you need a good grout float. i.e marshall town are very good, are you using hand sponges or wash boy system,

 

[CJ]

The consistency of a Mr Whippy ice cream.....or maybe even thicker. Mix enough so it doesn't slump or pour off your float. You should be able to do a small area at a time, then with a well rung sponge........sponge off, and move on to the next area.

You could try a temporary tile sealer, such as Bal temp sealer, but to be honest, if you get the mix right, you shouldn't need to.

When giving final wash, change the water often. Then let dry, and polish off with dry cloth.

 

[mnemonix]

The grout float's not a Marshall Town no, just a generic float of the kind sold in Topps, Wickes etc.
I'm using hand sponges, again, sold in Topps etc but not just an old washing up sponge at least!

I do appreciate the value of good tools, but as I'm not a pro, also appreciate that the 'correct' if not the 'very best' tools should do a perfectly reasonable job if used properly! I've used good adhesive and grout and you wouldn't believe how many threads and posts I've read here for research before starting!

 

[CJ]

Bal superflex is a good grout to use...............just don't grout tooo big an area at a time. If left tooo long it can be a nightmare to clean off. About 15/0 mins then clean.

"Simples"

 

[mnemonix]

Ok, thanks for the consistency guide CJ, it certainly is much runnier than that. Is it possible my grout is out of date or defective then, as I'm following the instructions precisely and it's nowhere near that consistency.

I'd already applied a stain protector to the tiles actually! Trust me I'm being meticulous with the buckets of clean water, washing the sponge in one, rinsing in the second, wringing out thoroughly.

Is it the wetness that's making the grout so light? maybe I've underestimated how light the standard grey grout is, but it looks luminous between the tiles and the patchy appearence suggests it's not right to me.

 

[kendo1]

The float will be fine, it's not rocket science. Same with the sponge. I use the cheapest I can find quite often.

 

[mnemonix]

Bal superflex is a good grout to use...............just don't grout tooo big an area at a time. If left tooo long it can be a nightmare to clean off. About 15/0 mins then clean.

"Simples"

Well that's what I'd read too, so when I can't sponge it 2 hours later without smearing it you know it wasn't exactly going to plan over here!
Then it's not so simples...

 

[CJ]

The luminous area is i bet, in the area you have done which was tooo wet. If a small area?, rake it out, and try and do the whole floor in one hit, I dont mean grout the whole area, then wash.......but grout in small patches then wash......then move on to next section.

Chance are the area you have done...........will rack out fairly easily as it was toooo wet.

 

[kendo1]

As I said, it depends on the humidity. Use a little common sense.

 

[mnemonix]

Two test areas so far, same runny grout in both and both very light. The difference was that I over sponged the first one while it was wet, which I thought might be why it went so light. The next one I bought some grout residue remover so I could leave it messy and avoid over sponging it, then clean up the next day. It may be slightly darker than the first, but there's not much in it, and it's had a day less to dry out too.

If over wet grout causes it to dry too light then that would explain both patches, but as I said, I did follow the instructions on the bag. Both times.

Kendo, point taken, but it's not humid this time of year, and definitely not in my house - very average conditions, which wouldn't explain why the consistency should be so far out using the suggested amounts.

 

[kendo1]

A teaspoon of water can make a huge difference.

 

[mnemonix]

I went out for a bit of advice too. Topps said "ignore the instructions, they're never right, just mix it thicker" (BAL don't know their own product?). Tile Giant said "sounds odd to us and it should still be setting up after a couple of hours even if it's too wet" I told them my kitchen was about 10 degrees C and they said, it'll slow it down slightly, but not by that much.

So I've mixed it by feel, much thicker - like mortar for bricklaying, and put some down. An hour later and it hasn't set, it still smears with the sponge and I have no hope it'll dry any darker once it's set by tomorrow.

I'm sure BAL has a great reputation, but nothing else I've tackled in the last 3 months building work has behaved so differently from all expectations, advice and guidance on the packet - and no disresepct, this isn't rocket science as others have already pointed out. All I can do at this point is try another brand because I'm just banging my head against the wall here now.

 

[Rich]

It might be a little to late fir this but it might be worth a read through, its a link to a thread i put up a while ago about grouting.

Grouting...

 

[mnemonix]

Thanks Rich, but trust me, I read it many times before I started the job in preparation. There's nothing there I'm doing wrong.

 

[kendo1]

Like you said, try another brand. Maybe it's a bad batch and you're the unlucky recipient.

Good luck, let us know. 🙂

 

[mnemonix]

Cheers, will do. I'll post a pic of the floor when it gets done. I hate reading threads where the OP disappears without reporting the outcome!

 

[doug boardley]

what ratio are you mixing the grout? and are you mixing the ratio's by weight or volume?

 

[mnemonix]

By weight (using a scale + or - 1g) 1:5 water:grout. Like it says on the bag!

 

[Stef]

We have used Superflex for years & never ever have had a problem.

I dont mix it to the ratio stated on the bag, i know by look & feel if its right or not, i cant even guess the ratio i use.

I prefer using Bal for this reason as you need to be bang on with using say a Mapei grout.

As already stated, mix it so it doesnt fall off your float, When sponging just wipe once (twice most) & leave it or you will add too much water to the grout & it will shrink in the joint.

 

[pete f]

Toooo much water

 

[Mike]

i've used the superflex grey and it does dry light, almost as light as cement probably. sometimes the grout in the joint takes a while to go off due to absorbancies in the tile and substrate but goes off quick on the surface of the tile and this can be hard to clean off. a washboy makes this easier

 

[mnemonix]

Thanks Mike, that's helpful.
Porcelain tiles, which I'd applied a stain protector to would be very non-absorbent causing the joints to set slowly while the thin smear on the surface would still go off. And maybe the grey is just lighter than I'd prefer. I wish they'd make a proper mid-grey then as there's nothing between that and the charcoal/ebony end of the scale which is all but black. Maybe that dries lighter too though?

Still a bit miffed by the runny consistency at recommended ratios but at least I know now.

 

[kendo1]

You can mix a darker grout into the grey, the trouble is consitency in shade. Measuring accurate ratios should not be difficult though.
You'll notice a colour change over time anyway. Darker shades tend to get lighter, and lighter colours tend to get darker.
Other manufacturers have more shades available.

 

[Mike]

as robson i never measure the water to grout ratios either and never have any problems. if you want a darker grout go for charcoal or anthracite but i wouldn't add any dark grout to your grey to darken as it will be very difficult to keep to the same shade and you'd probably have different shades with every mix of grout

 

[bobbynz]

you might want to mix up the grout then wait ten minutes, check how stiff it is , it should be quite firm like butter, dont worry just mix it up again dont add anything and you will find that it will soften enough to press into the joints.
Try a technique to wash off I have used for many years....once grouted, sponge over the tiles making sure to get the joints nice and full and evenly smoothed off. Dont be too fussy about getting all the grout off the tiles. then get another bucket of clean water rip a towel in half dip the towel into the water and just run it through your hands to get most of the water out. Then grab two corners and drape the towel onto the tiles and slowly walk back dragging the towel over the tiles. you might have to experiment a couple of times to get the right moisture content in the towel. When you have you will have a strip of very clean freshly grouted tiles the width of half a towel. Then repeat a few sq.metres at a time. This technique will cut your washing time by 2/3s and you will get a better finish than a sponge.
Just make sure the grout is quite firm in the joints before sponging and washing off.

Oh and the patches of light grout will have to be scratched out and grout the whole floor with the one batch of grout. Start the grout mix dry and firm and just add a little bit of water until its like toothpaste then wait and remix as per above.