HELP !! Tiling on a fresh chap - cement-water for past dries too fast

[werner]

I have a very big problem

When tiling on a fresh chap, then sometimes, sometimes not, it happens that the cement - water mixture put over the chap for paste the tiles, dries very, very fast, within seconds, so that there is no time to pass f.ex. a comb, and it isn't possible to adjust the tiles ( joints, level ). Also there have tiles, if one put the cement - water mixture on the backside, it dries also immediately.

This problem messes up the whole work.

How one can resolve that, that this don't dries so fast ?

This becomes better, if one put some past / colle into the cement - water mixture. However, many house owners don't want to spend money for buy this. And, in earlier times, people also worked only with cement, water, sand, and it worked.

 

[Chalker]

Re: HELP !! Tiling on a fresh chap - cement-water for past dries too f

Sounds like rapid set in a hot climate to me. Could do with an interpreter for the above post.

 

[Brian the Tile]

Re: HELP !! Tiling on a fresh chap - cement-water for past dries too f

hi werner,your post is not very easy to understand,but from what i can make out the adhesive is drying out to quick on a sand and cement screed ,if that is what you are meaning ,try using standard set adhesive, may help you

 

[Martyn Leeds]

Re: HELP !! Tiling on a fresh chap - cement-water for past dries too f

Typing while tiling results in bad grammer

 

[Gazzer]

Re: HELP !! Tiling on a fresh chap - cement-water for past dries too f

I think you will there is a language barrier here, the way I am reading this is that the tiles are being fitted , sand and cement style ?

 

[AliGage]

Re: HELP !! Tiling on a fresh chap - cement-water for past dries too f

Werner, I've jyst read through some of your other posts and realise you havent always got given an answer.

Can I ask where are you from? If we can understand you and your posts a bit better I'm sure we could help you with your questions.
From your posts you appear quite thorough.

 

[steve187]

Re: HELP !! Tiling on a fresh chap - cement-water for past dries too f

not sure if he is using a cement or a adhesive slurry onto a screed, be the screed wet, dry or semi dry i'm not sure

 

[Diamond Pool Finishers]

Re: HELP !! Tiling on a fresh chap - cement-water for past dries too f

Werner it sound like you need to soak the tiles & the surface to be tiled with water several times to kill the suction or thirsty background just before you tile ,then it will be OK....

 

[werner]

Re: HELP !! Tiling on a fresh chap - cement-water for past dries too f

I don't have always internet, so I can respond only today. I try to write shorter frases.

First, I make a chap, from ciment : sand appr. 1 to 10 or 15 , with less than half water as ciment.

Then I put tiles. For this, I throw a cement-water mixture over the fresh chap. Then I put the tile over it.

Sometimes (depending exactly on what, I dont know, but I would like to know) that cement-water mixture, however, dries very fast - within seconds - so it's not possible to put the tile over it before it dried, much less to shift the tile for adjust joints or level.

Also if I put some cement - water mixture on the backside of the tile, it dries immediately.

This can be resolved, by putting a little bit colle / past into the cement - water mixture. However, many owners don't want to spend money to buy this, and thus want one use only cement and water.

Really, in old times didn't have yet colle, and everybody used ciment-water only, putting it on fresh chaps, and then the tile(s) on top of that. Thus, I suppose I make something wrong.

This should know / respond old tilers, from the time before people started to use past / colle, from the time where people used ciment only.


Anyway, this is a very big problem for me, that the ciment-water contact skin dries so quickly, makes impossible any good work.

 

[White Room]

Re: HELP !! Tiling on a fresh chap - cement-water for past dries too f

Could'nt you soak the tiles in water for a bit before fixing so it dos'nt dry so quick on contact....

 

[werner]

Re: HELP !! Tiling on a fresh chap - cement-water for past dries too f

The ciment-water contact layer do not drying fast on contact with the tile, but before, when I put it on the chap.

But, wet the chap as solution, I think is stupid, because the chap for tiling (in contrast to beton) we make dry in order that is not curving during drying.

Perhaps there is something wrong how I mix the ciment-water, or I can put mix something into it that it dries more slowly (perhaps sand or sugar ) ? Or which tiler from the old times know what to do here

 

[White Room]

Re: HELP !! Tiling on a fresh chap - cement-water for past dries too f

The ciment-water contact layer do not drying fast on contact with the tile, but before, when I put it on the chap.

But, wet the chap as solution, I think is stupid, because the chap for tiling (in contrast to beton) we make dry in order that is not curving during drying.

Perhaps there is something wrong how I mix the ciment-water, or I can put mix something into it that it dries more slowly (perhaps sand or sugar ) ? Or which tiler from the old times know what to do here

No need to be so rude....

 

[Ian]

Re: HELP !! Tiling on a fresh chap - cement-water for past dries too f

Surely a plasticiser will extend the working time.

 

[Ajax123]

Re: HELP !! Tiling on a fresh chap - cement-water for past dries too f

. It sounds to me like you are not priming your chap (screed). The idea of priming is to reduce the level of suction from the adhesive into the chap. If you do not prime the chap sucks the water from the adhesive paste and it dries very quickly. Use a simple acrylic primer. Beton generally will have a higher moisture content and a less porous surface so will not have the same level of suction. It also sounds like you might be mixing your adhesive on the dry side so maybe have a look at the instructions t make sure you are adding enough water. Don't start putting additives in especially not sugar as this could cause you all sorts of issues.

 

[AliGage]

Re: HELP !! Tiling on a fresh chap - cement-water for past dries too f

Still a little difficult to understand but agree with Ajax. Sounds like your "chap" is ultra porous and sucking any moisture out of your adhesive. The same could be happening when you spread on the tile too. Depending on what the tile is, but that could be drawing in the moisture from the addy too.
Wet the back of the tile and prime the floor to try and avoid this.

 

[werner]

Re: HELP !! Tiling on a fresh chap - cement-water for past dries too f

Thanx for the responses. What is "priming your chap (screed)" , how and with which material one do this ?

And: if I put the ciment-water mixture on the backside of a tile, then happens the same like if I put it on the fresh chap: it dries within 2-3 seconds, no time to put the tile.

As said, the problem is, that the employers or owners don't like to spend money for material. And if then something goes wrong, they give the fault to the workers.


Strange is also, that this happens only sometimes. The water and the ciment is supposed to be the same, so this problem could depend on the proportion of mixing (potentially also on the quality / kind of the sand, but as said it dries on the tile also very fast). This NOT happens if one put a little colle / paste into the ciment-water mixture, however as the owners dont want to buy it, perhaps one can use something cheaper

In old times, people worked only with ciment, sand, water. Anybody has detailed instructions, how they made a fresh chap and tiled that immediately ?

So, if some tiler of the old times, or someone who know this good, can explain me, or if there is anywhere a detailed explanation, I would try this out.


This is in fact a bigger problem for me, as I can tell here ... 🙁

 

[Martyn Leeds]

Re: HELP !! Tiling on a fresh chap - cement-water for past dries too f

If I was having such a big problem, and I knew of an answer to solve it, as you do, and it was effecting my work as much as you say, then I would buy it out of my own pocket. If the employers/owners refuse to pay for whatever the product is... That's unless it comes at a fairly hefty price that would severely effect my ££££'s at the end of the job

 

[Ajax123]

Re: HELP !! Tiling on a fresh chap - cement-water for past dries too f

Werner.. Where are you from and where are you working?

 

[J Sid]

Re: HELP !! Tiling on a fresh chap - cement-water for past dries too f

Sounds like you are tiling the old way. Semi dry screed, plastic ( cement,water, plasticizer as Bri said ) then tile. Done tens of thousands of mt like this went i start as an improved ( apprentice now). So add plasticizer and this will cure the problem.

 

[Gazzer]

Re: HELP !! Tiling on a fresh chap - cement-water for past dries too f

FYI Werner is somewhere around French Guiana.

 

[Ajax123]

Re: HELP !! Tiling on a fresh chap - cement-water for past dries too f

FYI Werner is somewhere around French Guiana.

Thought he might have been from Scandinavia ... Not going to bother further cos it don't smell quite right .... Ajax123 signing off

 

[werner]

Re: HELP !! Tiling on a fresh chap - cement-water for past dries too f



My last tiling 3 days ago wasn't good, with water-ciment mixture on a fresh chap, the tiles didnt past good, I had to remove everything .... 🙁

If I buy a bag colle, don't remain nothing more from the payment ...

 

[Spud]

Re: HELP !! Tiling on a fresh chap - cement-water for past dries too f

Werner I always put a handful of adhesive in with the slurry it slows it down nicely another way of slowing it is washing up liquid in the slurry which is what a lot of the old timer brick layers used

 

[werner]

Re: HELP !! Tiling on a fresh chap - cement-water for past dries too f

Could you explain this better, "washing up liquid in the slurry" ?

Put more water in (or less ciment) ? if so, how many ? And should rest the water-ciment mixture some time after mixing, before applied ? Normally, I mix it, and then I use it imediately.

And know you perhaps any references in internet, where is explained good and detailed the old-time tile setting manner ?


I make rather often chaps and put the tiles in that manner. Normally, this goes good. But sometimes happens that what I reclaimed here. I don't know exactly why and wherefrom depending, but I suppose it's a probmem with the ciment-water mixture, not with the chap or tiles where the problem happens at the same time. Something I make wrong.



And: what is 'plasticiser' ???

 

[werner]

Re: HELP !! Tiling on a fresh chap - cement-water for past dries too f


In fact this are normally the intermediaries or firmas for which you work which don't want spend money for paste/colle but only for ciment. After mess like this I wait the proprietary phone me to work directly for him. He buyed colle, I gone there, flatted the chap (rather unflatted because removing the tiles) with some sand and ciment, and put over next tiles, this time with colle-water mixture (not with cement-water mixture), and no problem.

However, I have to learn, how to do this with cement, water, how the old-time tilers did this.



what is 'plasticiser' ???

what means "washing up liquid in the slurry" ?

 

[jonnyc]

Re: HELP !! Tiling on a fresh chap - cement-water for past dries too f

where are you doing this work.
i am guessing ths is not locally to uk

 

[jonnyc]

Re: HELP !! Tiling on a fresh chap - cement-water for past dries too f

see no plate has euro union stars . so unles exported you are operating in europe.
so come on and let us know what country you are working in

 

[Gazzer]

Re: HELP !! Tiling on a fresh chap - cement-water for past dries too f

French Guiana

 

[werner]

Re: HELP !! Tiling on a fresh chap - cement-water for past dries too f

what is 'plasticiser' ???

what means "washing up liquid in the slurry" ?

 

[Gazzer]

Re: HELP !! Tiling on a fresh chap - cement-water for past dries too f

what is 'plasticiser' ???

what means "washing up liquid in the slurry" ?

Why dont you answer the question. In which country are you?

 

[werner]

Re: HELP !! Tiling on a fresh chap - cement-water for past dries too f

<----- Where I'm living is wroten at the side: "French Guiana", and I told already in my greeting thread, see also the name of the fotos
http://www.tilersforums.com/new-members-say-hi-here/63009-hello-2.html#post639991

I dont speak good enough english for I understand: what is 'plasticiser' ??? what means "washing up liquid in the slurry" ? Perhaps someone could explain me that a little better, what material to use, and how to do the work.

When I take a work directly from the house owner, then I tell the owner what he has to buy, f.ex. paste . But when one works for an intermediady, for loan, then the intermediary want to economize, specially he don't want to spend money for paste but orders to use cement. Certain kind of tiles don't paste good with cement, others paste but the cement-water mixture dries so fast that one don't have time to put the tile (that was what happened in the case explained above). In this second case, I have to learn what to do. Because, earlier, the tilers also used water, cement, sand and perhaps something else, but paste still didn't exist.