How many Sq Metres a day can you lay natural stone?

[mikey3000]

Hi there, new to the forum, and the trade. I'm currently working on a development of five new houses in Essex (bathrooms, kitchens, floors/hallways) in limestone (600 x 400 floors, 400 x 400 wall) before doing an ICA course starting mid-April and I'm getting excellent quality results, but I am SLOW!

So I was wondering, what meterage would a pro tiler with years of experience (like all of you on this forum) expect to be able to lay per day? (I've got all the gear, Rubi wet-cutter etc, no excuses, but I'm doing only about 3 - 4 sq metres a day - taking AGES to get the tiles level on the floor. Client wants brick-work pattern, so nowhere to hide if there are lips).

In case you're wondering how I got the job (given my inexperience), the developers (small time, tight) decided to stop paying for contractors and so told their two full time employees (one of which is my next door neighbour) that they had to do all the tiling themselves. But because there is so much of it (esp the hallways/dining room and kitchen floors) he didn't want to do it, so recommended me to them on the cheap (£20 a sq metre, laid, grouted and sealed. Hey, I'm soon to be paying Able Skills for the privilege of tiling a mock-up bay, so I figured this is real work, for real clients, so it's a great practice and experience). Having worked a full week I'm probably £180 up (after all the preparation that was necessary to the floors - out of 5 days I got 2 1/2 days of laying plus a few hours grouting).

If there is a magic secret of how a pro would do a much higher meterage PLEASE let me in on it (I suspect it may be because my beds are too thick - I'm putting on the floor and buttering the back of the floor tiles, but there's a 3mm high point in most of the floors, and the rooms/halls all interlink so I couldn't think of any other way, apart from chiselling off loads of screed all over the place)???

Thanks in advance (and if anyone wants to laugh at my predicament, that's cool too - it's all a learning curve. Anyway, it's Friday so I'm off down the pub in a minute to squander my hard-earned :8:

Mikey

 

[DHTiling]

hello mikey and welcome to the forums.........have a pint for me.......:17:

 

[hillhead]

hello there mikey,
seems like your havin fun? lol.
them floors may need some levelling compound,at the rate you tiling you'll be on them houses to next year,lol,joking.
In dublin last year i was getting 60 euro a metre,40 quid and was laying 15 -20 mt a day,but 20 sterling is about right up north here.
good luck kid,your speed should come eventually.

 

[JOHNNYCLARKE]

mikey

Sounds like youve landed that great opportunity you needed before youve even officially started.
Youre doing the right thing to get it right first.
Speed comes with time and alot of time.
Havent got time this evening but will gladly give you some pointers.
Just remember , anyone can put a tile on the floor on top of some adhesive but there is a big diffrence between laying ceramics with a notched trowel and laying a stone floor like a billiard table with no lips.

Quality is the key to sucess.

Johnny

 

[mz30]

Hi mikey
What depth serator are you using ,as a 3mm high point is pretty much a good floor .Am i misunderstanding?

 

[Kobbie]

Hello Mikey and welcome

 

[mikey3000]

Hi MZ I am using a 10mm trowel. Maybe a larger one would be better, or a solid bed (U shaped one)???

Overall the floor is pretty good, just high at the doorways, and going slightly uphill in the kitchen.
----
Thanks very much for the words of encouragement Johnny, that's what I figured - quality first.

It's also frustrating that we can only get into the site at 8 a.m., nothing gets started til 8:30 (they all want tea and to sledge each other), there are two forced breaks (10 and 1) and then we get kicked off-site at 4:30. If you get 7 hours a day of work in it's a miracle. Personally I'd want to be working at least 4 - 5 hours longer per day than that. Maybe I'd get 5 sq m's done then ;-)

All the best, Mikey
----
Hi Hillhead, yep, lot's of fun!
15 - 20 sq m a day, WOW! :whatchutalkingabout

I can see that I have a LOT to learn :mad2:

 

[sWe]

Mikey3000, if the layer of adhesive is thick enough to balance out any diffs in the thickness of the individual pieces, and the floors are fairly level, a tip would be to use a plank or a board as a level guide.

You lay it on the freshly laid pieces, and when there are lips, you'll see exactly where and if you need to tap the pieces down a bit, or if you need to put down more addy. You can either tap the plank with a mallet , or tap the individual pieces. Double check the levels with a spirit level afterwards, so you didn't go to far. Make sure to clean away excess addy in the spacing.

Using this method, you can smack down a row, go over it with the plank and match it to the rest of the floor faster than if you gauge with eyes only.

 

[mikey3000]

Thanks very much indeed sWe, that's excellent, I'll try that on Monday.

I guess the trick is to put on more adhesive rather than less, as it's easier to push the tiles down a bit and remove excess from the spacing than it is to lift tiles to put more down if they are too low, is that right??

All the best,

 

[dean39]

Hi mate,welcome to the forum,........happy tiling......

 

[CLAYS TILES]

:hurray: :welcome2::hurray:

 

[devonmark]

Hello and welcome..Mark.

 

[sWe]

Thanks very much indeed sWe, that's excellent, I'll try that on Monday.

I guess the trick is to put on more adhesive rather than less, as it's easier to push the tiles down a bit and remove excess from the spacing than it is to lift tiles to put more down if they are too low, is that right??

All the best,

Pretty much, yeah. Do remember though, that different adhesives are made for different applications and thicknesses. If you have to go thicker than what the manufacturer recommends for the particular adhesive you're using, it might not cure properly, and crack, or something else undesireable.

 

[Daz]

Hi Mikey and welcome,

Hang in there, I have only been going full time since the start of this year and can already see a marked improvement in my speed.

I recently had to lay 150m of porcelain (400 x 400) in a barn conversion and I think the bloke that laid the screed must have been bladdered 'cos it was 35mm higher at the main entrance than in the kitchen. I just took my time and "packed" tiles, where neeed, and the floor ran smooth (albeit uphill - lol!).

I can't offer any tips to improve your speed but concur with previous comments that quality should always come first.

Good luck.

 

[mikey3000]

Hi Captain Slow, thanks very much indeed for the words of encouragement.

150 m barn conversion??!!! DAMN, that is a BIG job!

What's porcelain like to work, better or worse than stone (in terms of your personal preference)? I haven't done any porcelain yet but like the look of the tiles.

All the best, Mikey

 

[sWe]

Ceramics are much easier to work than stone, as they're not usually as sensitive to staining and such, and they're almost always caliberated. You can also use other types of tools on them.

 

[MICK the Tiler]

WOW!! Large Format limestone for a first Timer on a screed as well, Hows the back holding up? Just work clean slow and get it right the first time. You won't get any extra praise from anyone for speed but you will get praise if the job comes out SMICK!!! you will also get more work as well. Hang in there and don't think that being slow is bad because with stone "SLOW IS THE GO"

Keep us posted.

 

[JOHNNYCLARKE]

Sorry couldnt get back to you till now.
Already talked about speed, which only comes with practice or taking short cuts.

Very hard to say how much a very experienced stone fixer would lay in a day
but if the stone is honed and diamond sawn square edge, my guts would fix approx 9- 12 sq mts a day if not cutting at all.
Record I think is 17.00 sq mts.
But if youre cutting as well and depending how awkward the cuts this gets reduced alot.
There will be guys on this site that will say they can lay far more than this and indeed they can and so could my employees if accuracy not the key issue, but we lay stone with a 2.50 mt long box section straight edge and I dont expect to see any gaps under it or any lips at all.( a lip is 1mm or more!!)
If the stone has pillowed or antiqued or distressed edges you can lay more but be wary about sticking a level on the top of stone, as this is uneven.
What is more important is to marry up the distressed edge as this thickness can vary.
If we get a subfloor floor that is very good, with distressed stone I cut a length of wood the thickness of stone and optimum bed and lay everything to that height
by running the block of wood around the edge of piece to be fixed.
You cannot do this with honed material.
When any bedding stone we put a very thin bed of adhesive on screed and on back of tile and in between lay out the main adhesive.You then push/tap stone down until you have 100% bed underneath and level floor.
This is one of the key points to speed.

The more experienced tiler will rarely need to pick up a stone and add more adhesive underneath and there will be little excess squelching out around tiles.

It is far easier to lay a level floor where you know that your level has to read level all ways.
In reality this is not always possible due to finished floor heights etc in adjoining rooms and in reallty it is only experience that allows you to bend floors with visual no lips.

There are methods of fixing with sand/cement/adhesive on screeds that could vary up to 20mm out of level but I wouldnt try that yet.
you can never guatrantee any adhesive if you mix anything with it even though it may work perfectly well.

There is alot to learn about stone fixing but if you stick at it and your quality is good and you get known for that , you can possibly cut out some of the competion you are getting in the ceramic game.

I represent a number of top flight stone suppliers and go to see stone floors that have gone wrong for one reason or another and I am amazed at some of it.

It is not just the laying,but the drying/sealing/ care when fixing not to damage/upkeep etcc.

There are many ceramic tilers trying to lay stone now and it simply is not the same game.
Now porcelain is very popular with rectified edges people are having to become alot more careful with their fixing and this has always been the case for stone.

Sounds like you have a great opportunity here. The only worry might be that the developer didnt want to pay professional stonefixers to do the job.
What does he expect from you.
You should never do work as day rate as this opens you up to alot of griping as to what you have done for your money.

You should charge a reasonable rate maybe less a bit if he knows youre not time served but you will not earn what an experienced stone fixer will.The tiled result should be the same though.

That comes with time and I am astonished how many times I hear newish tilers complaining that they are not earning what theyve heard they should.
It is a bit of an affront for anyone to assume they can earn what proper time served person can earn as soon as theyve done a training course.

It takes a few years flat out to get up to speed and after that you can start taking short cuts knowing you have the knowledge to get out of a problem.


Maybe these tiles courses are giving out too much optimism just to get people to sign up.

None of the above is directed at you Mikey.
Just an observation

JOHNNY

NB
Always base your quote on a flat, level, dry screed.
I get 2.2 sq mts of stoneset thickbed white per sq mt on a reasonable subfloor with approx 6-7mm bed.
With solid bed fixing you can use loads of adhesive if levels right.
Strange but Ardex products have far greater coverage than Weber I use but cost alot more.
Avoid pourable thickbed adhesive if using honed material.Tiles sink in it !!