Is my bathroom tiling acceptable? Some advice needed please.

[Hezzie]

Good morning folks, I wonder if you can offer me some advice please.

I've employed a bathroom fitter to fit me a new bathroom, he's Hardbackered the floor and around the bath/shower area but has tiled directly onto paint, no roughing up or scoring. Searching on Google and on here the general consensus of opinion is that is not good practice, they are big, heavy tiles. Also he's dot and dabbed the tiles on the wall, there's a 5mm or more gap behind them.

Also I can home to this last night, the tile is sticking out 5mm in front of the door frame, I accept the house is a 1920's house and browning/plaster and the walls aren't level but surely this isn't acceptable, I've never seen it anywhere before.

He's got a couple more days of work here yet.

Any advice would be very much appreciated.

Thank you.

 

[Italy]

Cazzo!!!
this is to be taken to prison.

 

[acaciaguy]

This is isn’t good. On another note he has quoted to supply and fit spot lights. All electric work in a bathroom must be undertaken by a Part P competent person. To not be so breaches building regs. It’s a serious safety point to think about. Unless he subbed out to a part p electrician ? Or did he do it

 

[Dan]

Well spotted @acaciaguy
If not part p he needs notify building control / council and get them to check it and sign it off, which costs more than an electrician usually.

If I am understanding threads on our sparky forum that is. Which I may not be to be fair.

 

[acaciaguy]

You are indeed correct. The work can be undertaken by anyone and then bco checked. However normally it is undertaken by a part p approved guy (good) or a bathroom fitter without part p / not Checked by bco (bad).

I should add. I fit a lot of kitchens and bathrooms and electric work is a common thing. Lights , sockets (kitchens) extractor fans etc all subbed out to my wonderful electrician (part p. / jib etc).

 

[Dan]

Yay I was right for once lol

 

[Hezzie]

This is isn’t good. On another note he has quoted to supply and fit spot lights. All electric work in a bathroom must be undertaken by a Part P competent person. To not be so breaches building regs. It’s a serious safety point to think about. Unless he subbed out to a part p electrician ? Or did he do it

He did it himself Acaciaguy.
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Oh no. This isn't good.

Also no internal corner expansion gap. This isn't a tiler who's done this. He needs some training or something. Certainly needs to stop saying he can tile.

Dot and dab = no
Tiling to PVA = no
Tiling to Emulsion = no
No internal corner expansion gap = no

Those are big no's. They're not just for looks. The tiles can pop off the wall with any one of those, you've got a hat trick plus one.

Then the edging needed sorting but that's just cosmetic.

He needed more adhesive, and to use it properly. And then to score the walls. And use an Acrylic Primer and not PVA. PVA is good for children making things but other than that it shouldn't be used. It's used in some plastering techniques but I don't think much else.

Oh dear, thanks Dan.
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Christ, they say get a tradesman in, they know what they are doing.

Unfortunately, you only learn what 'should' be done when you start looking up information when you have problems, I had the same with soffits, facias and gutters.

I expected a recommendation from the local plumb centre would be reliable but apparently not.

I came back home around lunchtime and told him what you guys had said, he said I want you to be happy, what would you like me to do, I can take all the tiles off the wall and clean them as best as I can, you have the room plastered and I can come back and redo the tiles as you want them doing, he removed one tile which took a fair bit of effort with a hammer and chisel so seemed to be secure.

I didn't want to be left with a half finished bathroom, I have no sink and a temporary toilet that isn't even screwed down and wobbles when you sit on it, he is going to finish off over the weekend and install my new toilet and sink, seal everything, install the shower screen etc, there's dust in every room of the house on every single surface including the kitchen downstairs, I think the only option I have at the moment is to let him finish then sort it out through litigation later.

I'm a chimney sweep by trade, I see so many bodge jobs by installers it infuriates me, I'm Hetas registered but don't install and I do everything by the book, if it can't be done right, I don't do it. I spend every night on chimney sweep forums, updating my knowledge and making sure everything is done right and I'm doing everything to the best of my ability.

You might think pfft, chimney sweep but when we do the job properly, we have to know all the Document J building regs, which pots, cowls, lining systems, hearths, distance to combustible materials, correct installation techniques, twinwall systems, hearth construction, etc etc etc I really could go on and on but I won't, we have these same sorts of discussions on our forums too with jobs we have seen by installers.

I think he genuinely is trying to do the job as best he has been taught and thinks is right, he's a really nice lad but that doesn't help me. I know from my job that work done contrary to building regs can invalidate your house insurance, I've worked too hard to lose it.

Thank you for all you advice and guidance lads, you've been amazing and extremely helpful, I really, really appreciate it. I'll let you know how it pans out.

Many, many thanks and kind regards, Wayne.

 

[Dan]

When you get a tradesman in, you need a skilled tradesman. Not a builder.

There's no such trade as a builder. You can't get a qualification in "building".

You're either an architectural engineer (you do the plans), or a bricklayer (you build to the plans). An actual building company consists of both of those. But neither would go out to quote a bathroom installation job, and neither would say they're a builder.

It's a common problem.

But let it fire off warning signs when somebody say "I'm a builder, I can do that". They mean "I once worked on a building site as a labourer, I will have a go at that". Because an actual skilled person who works on a site will say their skill. Not call themselves a builder, or tradesman.

All useless information now. But worth noting for the future.

YOU NEED A TILER for the tiling AND AN ELECTRICIAN for the electrics. A plumber will do the plumbing (though with water plumbing rather than gas, like with tiling, it's an un unregulated trade so although there are qualifications, most doing it wont have any) first fix and second fix. Both a tiler and a plumber might do the other in a bathroom, but they still wont call themselves a builder. They'll say they're a tiler that does plumbing, or plumber that can tile. Neither usually do both to standard.

We do have a few that can though @Boggs being one.

 

[Hezzie]

When you get a tradesman in, you need a skilled tradesman. Not a builder.

There's no such trade as a builder. You can't get a qualification in "building".

You're either an architectural engineer (you do the plans), or a bricklayer (you build to the plans). An actual building company consists of both of those. But neither would go out to quote a bathroom installation job, and neither would say they're a builder.

It's a common problem.

But let it fire off warning signs when somebody say "I'm a builder, I can do that". They mean "I once worked on a building site as a labourer, I will have a go at that". Because an actual skilled person who works on a site will say their skill. Not call themselves a builder, or tradesman.

All useless information now. But worth noting for the future.

YOU NEED A TILER for the tiling AND AN ELECTRICIAN for the electrics. A plumber will do the plumbing (though with water plumbing rather than gas, like with tiling, it's an un unregulated trade so although there are qualifications, most doing it wont have any) first fix and second fix. Both a tiler and a plumber might do the other in a bathroom, but they still wont call themselves a builder. They'll say they're a tiler that does plumbing, or plumber that can tile. Neither usually do both to standard.

We do have a few that can though @Boggs being one.

Thanks Dan. 👍

 

[Hezzie]

A little update chaps, I had a conversation with the bathroom fitter (plumber).
After speaking to the tile shop who initially covered his *** (as they asked who was fitting the tiles so I told them) they said sometimes you have to dot and dab a tile into place.
I rang back later 'unidentified' and asked whether it was OK to use Pva and dot and dab, they said 'no'.
Coming home at lunchtime I told him what the tileshop had said he said he was going to ring them, so I asked if he could put it on speakerphone, he did and they basically said, 'sorry, we tried to cover you but Pva and dot and dab aren't to British Standards and we didn't know he was your customer when he rang'.
Next he rang his fried 'who tiles much more than he does' and his friend also said not to dot and dab but said Pva is OK as long as it's really watered down.
After the phone call the plumber asked what I wanted to do, he could remove them all, I could get the walls plastered and he would come back (earlier he told me he was booked up until the new year).
He removed one tile with a fair bit of effort but damaged the one below.
I didn't want to be left without a bathroom so reluctantly agreed he should carry on.
After fitting the bath he found the bath panel didn't fit as he hadn't set the bath height correctly, he said he would get a larger panel and cut it down.
After questioning the part P for electrics he said he had an electrician who was part p qualied and would come on Monday to sort it, he did but hasn't drilled a hole in the soffits for a vent outlet and seemed to think it's perfectly acceptable to vent warm moist air into a cold loft space as 'it's breathable' I told him it wasn't acceptable and that wasn't what was agreed, he said he would come back in the week to vent it.
Last night I came home from work and decided to check under the bath to find a pool of water, after running the taps and shower I have found the bath is leaking behind the taps.
I paid him 50% of his invoice over the weekend before this came to light.
Also because he has built out the tiles so much, I can't shut the bathroom door without the door catch scraping on the brand new tiles.
I have emailed him at 12.30am this morning to ask how he is going to rectify the faults.

 

[Boggs]

Looks like it will be some poor siliconing behind the taps, and because the tiles are dot and dabbed on the water is free to run down behind the tiles.
And some isolation valves on the bath tap would be best practice really.

 

[JMC tiling]

Its not acceptable but what i would say is that the quote he has given you for them works is way too cheap no matter where you are based in the country. pay peanuts get monkeys and all that.

 

[Hezzie]

Its not acceptable but what i would say is that the quote he has given you for them works is way too cheap no matter where you are based in the country. pay peanuts get monkeys and all that.

£1800 is too cheap to fit a bathroom, what would you charge JMC?
When he broke it all down I thought it was reasonable, not cheap.

On another note, I sent him an email detailing all the work needed to rectify so he sent back the Electrician (we do have a Part P cert for his work, including the fan), I was at work, my wife has a few days holiday booked so dealt with him. He went up the ladder and put a 'vent' in, she said he didn't go in the loft or even enter the house, so got my ladders off the van and went in the loft, this is what I've found.

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Fo

Looks like it will be some poor siliconing behind the taps, and because the tiles are dot and dabbed on the water is free to run down behind the tiles.
And some isolation valves on the bath tap would be best practice really.

He said isolation valves would reduce the water pressure, to be fair it's a 1920`s house and one supply is shared by 4 houses and can drop quite low on the rare'ish occasions we all use the supply at once. Is this a reasonable statement?
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The guy said he has spent £700 on materials and hasn't earned a lot for the hours he's put in, to be fair, he has grafted but the outcome isn't ideal. Should I offer some more money to get it sorted, I want a 'win/win' situation not a lose/win or lose/lose.

I don't think he's going to get through to the soffit, would a roof tile vent be a better option?

What are your thoughts on the above please.

 

[Dumbo]

You can get full flow isolation valves, he should know this

 

[Boggs]

Full bore lever valves won’t restrict the flow.

I have fitted isolation valves to all outlets for the whole of my 26 years plumbing, but I can’t tell you if they are needed to meet water regs on baths as they are not readily accessible.

 

[Hezzie]

You can get full flow isolation valves, he should know this

Thank you Jcr (sorry, I don't know your name).
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Full bore lever valves won’t restrict the flow.

I have fitted isolation valves to all outlets for the whole of my 26 years plumbing, but I can’t tell you if they are needed to meet water regs on baths as they are not readily accessible.

Thank you boggs.
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Cheers guys, I wish you were in my area. One thing I've learned in my life as a sweep, people who engage in forums like this are at the forefront of their field as they want to challenge their knowledge and keep up to date, maybe I should seek out the relevant trade forum in advance, unfortunately you don't know what questions to ask until something has gone wrong.