Limestone tile cracking disaster on UFH

[splas]

Hi Everyone,
Am hoping someone can help with some advice here.

I have had 120sq mtrs of honed Opera limestone (600x600) tile laid in a renovation over a new slab. The slab has expansion joints in doorways, round the perimiter and down the centre of the largest room (59m2). After laying the new slab & screed some seperate areas were added where doorways/windows have been alterered. The slab was laid & dried for several months before the UFH & screed was poured on top. The screed over the UFH has expansion joints to mirror those in the slab.

The screed over the UFH (wet) had been down some 10 months prior to the UFH being turned on (slowly) & whilst the UFH was pressure tested long before this the UFH was never turned on prior to tiling - despite insisting the builder do this. He said no need as the slab/screed had been down so long & was properly dry.

The tiles were laid with no expansion joints to mirror those in the slab/screed & no de-coupling membrane used (120sq mtrs!). Flexible adhesive & grout were used. After some weeks hairline cracks in the tiles (not grout lines) have started to appear (as feared & expected) and continue to appear. They are over expansion joints, across door-ways & where the slab was extended into new windows/doorways. Many cracks span several tiles.

My question is what to do now - ripping the floor up & rectifying is a prospect I can't face (or afford) & suspect this might damage the UFH in any case for such a large area. The cracks are forthemost part quite 'light' i.e hairline, but not all run in staright lines.

My question is:
1. Should we fill & try to disguise the cracks -if so what with-grout/epoxy, hoping they then look like natural markings in the tiles? If we do this will they crack again in the same place?
2. Should we cut expansion joints into the tile where the cracks have formed & fill with grout or silicone (bearing in mind this could look unattractive in some areas as some cracks are close to grout lines so we would have tram-line effect of double grout lines) . Also will this help avoid future cracking or are we better off leaving and/or disguising those cracks on the asumption that as they have already ocured in those places they will not recurr.
3. Try to replace some of the cracked tiles - but won't they just crack again?
4. Take our glasses off & ignore them!

Or any other suggestions?

Grateful for any help from the experts out there.

 

[Qwerty]

A decoupling membrane was required here. Any photos?

Welcome to the forum :welcome:

 

[Dave]

When expansion joints are in the substrate they should also follow through into the tiling field , can I ask who made the decision to not do so .?

 

[Dan]

As Dave rightly points out, expansion joints are required all the way through the flooring. Without them in the tiles, you're allowing stretching of the subfloor where a solid tiled layer is going to be the weak spot.

 

[Ajax123]

wow. A whole catalogue of issues by the look of it. what I am a little confused about is why you are expecting to foot the bill.

 

[Andy Allen]

as ajax said, get whoever tiled it back to put it right or get your money back..

 

[splas]

Thank you all for your comments.
I could post pics but am not sure they will reveal anything I haven't explained but will do so tomorrow.
In answer to Ajax & Andy Allen - bldr is in trouble financially (probably terminally) - undoubtedly the reason corners were cut with de-coupling membrane & an inexperienced sub-contractor tiler. The tile episode is just one disaster on this project-utter nightmare!
I think we're all clear why this has happened, what I was after if anyone can help is the best way to deal with it now if anyone has any suggestions that don't involve ripping it all up & starting again. We are owed a lot of money on this project - a whole other story that I won't bore you with & so are looking for an alternative - the tiles cost thousands!

Do we disguise the cracks or turn them into expansion joints - see my original post.
Many thanks

 

[Dougs Third Go]

I think the only way to salvage this job would be to take up the cracked tiles, assuming they're over buried expansion joints, and re-lay incorporating an expansion joint to the surface, although there may well be some horrible little cuts on one side of the joint.

 

[Alphadock]

I think the only way to salvage this job would be to take up the cracked tiles, assuming they're over buried expansion joints, and re-lay incorporating an expansion joint to the surface, although there may well be some horrible little cuts on one side of the joint.

I concur!

 

[Dave]

As with doug.

 

[Time's Ran Out]

Question 1 - they'll crack again
2 - they'll crack again
3 - they'll crack again
4 - sounds about right!

As you were and are now aware the expansion joints should be carried through the surface of the finished material i.e. Limestone.
What you could try is removing the cracked tile and bridging the expansion joint wirh a thin fleece type decoupling membrane - no guarantees but if you try on a test area first it may be sufficient to sto the transfer of movement through to the tile.

 

[splas]

Thank you all for your comments,
Sadly the cracks are not all over expansion joints - some are where the builder extended the slab into new window areas etc - his disorganisation meant this wasn't done at the same time as the slab was poured. He also didn't put the UFH into these areas so we have a few cold spots in window bays, which of course doesn't help.

There is also a very fine crack running the entire width (7m) of the main room, it is v fine at the moment (as are most of the cracks) and this crack is directly over an expansion joint (with a few cracks running off it the other way) but sadly there is a tile joint only 15cm away from a grout line. My husband dremmeled this grout line out with the intention of putting a silicone seal in it to try & avoid cracking, but clearly this made no difference and the crack appeared a few days ago. This long crack in particular would look bad if turned into an expansion joint as it is so close to a grout line & is 7m long slap bang in the middle of the room.

Three of you have suggested adding expansion joints retrospectively, which we could in doorways but where they fall close to existing grout lines it won't look great but I assume this is always the case unless you tile each room separately with no long runs? Timeless John suggests they will just crack again.
I guess my main question is:
Is creating retrospective expansion joints likely to prevent further cracking as opposed to just leaving & disguising the already cracked tiles? What about the cracks that aren't across doorways or expansion joints - would it be ok just to disguise them & does my theory that filling the cracks with something flexible (and not replacing the tile) will in effect create a small expansion joint where each crack has formed & thus help prevent further cracking? Would doing nothing (bar disguising the cracks) and hoping it doesn't get any worse be wose than doing some of the things you suggest whih is acknowledged might not work anyway?

Thanks

 

[Time's Ran Out]

It sounds a right mess!
Surley the builder is covered by a National House Building Insurance Scheme so get him to rectify his work.
Whatever you do to this floor is only cosmetic and not what you have paid for. Stop any 'bodging' of the floor and take action .

 

[Dave]

Now you have posted further info , I am of the opinion that this install is a major balls up , not on,y by the builder but the tiler employed should have known better .
Imho it needs to be lifted and an anti crack most installed to combat the areas not controlled by expansion joints , like doorways and room change intersections.

 

[splas]

Hi both,

I know it is a mess but at the moment the cracks, whilst numerous are quite fine & not too noticeable - they could easily be disguised as natural veins.

Taking the floor up & starting again is out of the question. This is a 3 month bldg project (refurb, not new build) that after nearly 2 years is only 50% or so finished. We are owed a substantial sum of money by the bldr but he hasn't got any! The tiles alone cost over 5K, just can't afford to do it again in addition to all the bldr owes us. Bldr is a member of all manner of associations - FMB, Guild of master craftsmen, Govt Trustmark etc etc (with whom I have lodged complaints) but to my cost, as the seemingly unimportant customer, all such memberships seem meaningless & the only option is court.
In an ideal world all that you say ref money back, NHBC guarantees etc would be great but sadly for the ill-informed customer this is far from an ideal world and even for inteligent people (I would like to think!) you can be duped in this unregulated industry.

Can anyone say if leaving as is is unwise i.e. MUST I now create retrospective expansion joints or now it has already cracked can I just leave & hope. Also wouldn't lifting the tiles endanger the UFH?

 

[splas]

Sadly NHBC is just for new build - not refurbs.

 

[CJ]

Splas........would you be happy "disguising/making do" with the defects? Or would YOU be constantly checking & Expecting cracks/movement? If so.......then it needs sorting now. If not, then disguise it.

Sorry to P on your chips.

 

[splas]

Trouble is without starting again completely, as others have siad whatever we do to rectify ie expansion joints, adding de-coupling membrane over expansion joints etc,does not gurantee no more cracks - only way to do that is rip it all up - all 120sq metres of expensive limestone and I assume that course of action may risk damaging the UFH?
Can't do it unless it gets substantially worse- 2 years of hell, been living in a caravan, only just moved back in, bldr has fleeced us finacially & we are both in need of a psychiatrist!
I am afraid I am looking for the best option to make do & try to prevent further damage but don't want to do anything that would incurr significant cost/disruption unless it will actually achieve something.
Hope that makes sense

 

[Time's Ran Out]

Tile over the top this time using a decoupling membrane, and only if the limestone is well fixed. You will obviously lose some of the heat benifit from the UFH but you either live with it or change it!

 

[splas]

Solid oak doors etc all already fitted so not an option.

 

[Time's Ran Out]

Ok - fill the cracks and make it into a veined limestone, but there's only one way it's going - worse!

 

[radim]

if you cant re-do it you have to live with it. simple as...

 

[splas]

Thanks for all the replies -I completely understand I have to live with it if I can't afford to rip it all up & start again - I think I said that inmy original post. What I was asking was...

Is just filling the cracks a worse option (in terms of more cracking) that creating retrospective expansion joints over the cracks or will the fact that cracks have formed help now?

 

[AliGage]

I'm jumping In to post in this thread after getting halfway down page 2.
I'm not going to understand the reason you're being so gentle on the builder.
Does your incompetent builder not have PLI?

 

[splas]

Hi AliGage,
He does but does that cover bad building practice? I thought it was more for accidents etc. It was something I looked at but everything I read made me think it wasn't covered - bad bldg practice would be hard for an insurer to cover as how would they check if the bldr was in fact competent before they insured them - the risk would be very high? Hope I am wrong & then maybe there is a chance- if he's kept his policy up - I checked it before I took him on but haven't checked since!